If I go without glasses I cannot see much, just about cross the roads, and cant recognise people, everything is blurry, cant shave safely, difficult to see whats going on etc.
Yet, palming and other exercises/natural habits take 6 months to see an improvement. !
So therefore, the only option is to go with reduced lenses AND do the exercises/natural habits like palming etc.
Pinhole glasses are not a long term substitute either.
If you do the palming etc with reduced lenses I think I will see greater benefits.
Dear Fuggles,
Subject: There are many Snellens that are "non-standard".
Therefore it is impossible to give you a "prescrition" based on the "lines" you have listed.
But in general, the "prescription for the 20/20 line is zero diopters.
As Bates would recommend, and other ODs suggest:
1. The 20/25 line -- NO MINUS LENS.
2. The 20/30 line -- NO MINUS LENS.
3. The 20/40 line -- you are reaching the poing where you must take preventive action. But in Bates 1913 study he recommended no minus, and use Bates to clear the 20/20 line. Other ODs will prescribe a -2 diotper for this line. That "policy" is called "best visual acuity" prescription.
4. The 20/50 line. It is critical that you get a WEAK minus lens of about -1/2 diopter -- until you can clear the 20/30 line and pass the DMV test of 20/40 or better.
5. The 20/60 line. This is still "functional myopia", that Bates insisted he could prevent in his 1913 study. The MDs who thought that Bates was a "crock", or a "lunatic" would prescribe about a -2.5 to -3 diopter lens at this point.
Dr. Bates was very sensitive to that minus lens, and recognized that you can not "prescribe" for any given line. I hope this clarifies this issue for you.
Ive come to the conclusion that Dr Bates was a madman who had a nervous breakdown, and although he had some good ideas they were overshadowed by his ego and personal problems.
Even his critics say there are years of his life with no idea of where he was or what he was doing after he was sacked by the optomotrist association or whatever you call it, then he must have had the breakdown, and then made a comeback with the bates method.
However things like palming and swining and sunning are good ideas, but to tell people to stop wearing glasses is madness.
fuggles Wrote:Ive come to the conclusion that Dr Bates was a madman who had a nervous breakdown, and although he had some good ideas they were overshadowed by his ego and personal problems.
Even his critics say there are years of his life with no idea of where he was or what he was doing after he was sacked by the optomotrist association or whatever you call it, then he must have had the breakdown, and then made a comeback with the bates method.
However things like palming and swining and sunning are good ideas, but to tell people to stop wearing glasses is madness.
I've been waiting a couple weeks for you to proclaim something like this. It was obvious you were on the verge of breaking down, and you've projected your own inner turmoil and frustration outward to the idea that someone else is insane instead. Like others who have had little success with the Bates method, you have given no indication that you have actually tried it. Your posts over the last year and a half suggest to me that you haven't put any work into carefully practicing any exercises and have limited it to doing a little palming, and you've never tried examining and describing in detail what you're doing in order to seek clarification on what you could be doing better, as I suggest in the "Am I doing this exercise right?" post that's stickied at the top of the forum. Your posts suggest that you've spent your time being distracted by every other little idea you come across such as nutrition, dentistry, ball tossing, magnets, and now the idea of improving your vision with a series of reduced prescriptions only. You joined this forum and yet have completely avoided using it for the very purpose it's here.
You've mentioned the period where Bates disappeared and left New York, but you seem to be confused about the timeline or events, suggesting to me that you briefly read something that you can't really remember and in any case didn't actually give it much thought or look into it and are just using it as ammunition to lash out with. I say this only because it's a continuation of your theme of not putting any thought or self-awareness into what you're doing, which is what the Bates method is all about: learning what you're doing with your mind and eyes that's causing poor vision so that you may stop the bad habits and acquire better patterns of use.
I don't know if you're incapable of going about this correctly because you're so young or for some other reason, but I ask that if you're insistent on denouncing it all that you so with productive criticism (not just lashing out) in the Critics & Skeptics forum that I have reserved for such purpose so that the rest of us don't need to wade through it while trying to use the forum for its main purpose. If it's just because you're young (I don't know how to say that without sounding condescending), then you might want to hold off and think about coming back and starting over in 5 years or so.
Part of this is my own fault, because I haven't structured this site or forum in the most optimal way to support the process. When I have some time in the future I think I'd like to start researching models and theories of how humans learn. Presenting information as it is already published (Bates and other author's books and articles on this site) and how I understand it (my many posts on this forum) while taking advantage of other people's knowledge, experience and points of view (through their posts on this forum) isn't working out as productively as I would like, and I believe a more complex learning structure that is more detailed and linear while at the same time being adaptive to individual needs would be helpful. It's a process of changing our own tools by using the very tools that we need to change, possible but obviously tricky. It's possible for people to find their own way through this by doing the work and getting assistance when needed, as the forum is currently structured, but something tells me that it could be much better.
Dave
Site Administrator
"Half of our funny, heathen lives, we are bent double to gather things we have tossed away." - George Meredith
Subject: All kinds of "reactions" to Dr. Bates 1913 study and presentation.
Dr. Bates conducted PREVENTIVE work for 10 years in N. D., and had results. These kids he described as "functional myopes" (i.e., they could FUNCTION with no minus lens on their face.) He basically implied that ANY wearing of an over-prescribed minus would create "eye-stretch" myopia, which he described as "in-cureable". I know that this "position" was modified in later years, but it is critical to understand that he felt that by AVOIDING any use of the minus lens (and clearing and pasing the Snellen under YOUR control) you could avoid eye-stretch myopia from that minus lens.
If the term "avod the minus -- or "chuck your glasses". were appied in that context -- it would be correct.
But people make the mistake in assuming that ONLY Dr. Bates recommended avoding the minus. Other ODs and scientific researchers have described the over-prescribed minus lens as, "...poision glasses for children". This is obviously the second-opinion, but must be understood that way.
In my opinion, my eyes were DESTROYED by that over-prescribed minus lens -- and the hostility and insult that Dr. Bates received -- killing the 1913 effort that COULD HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.
I am an Engineer. I don't make "claims" about these issues -- but judge that prevention on the threshold is possible by using Bates/Prentice methods. But neither method is "easy" and all could have their maximum effect if the minus lens were avoided.
Best, Otis
Fuggles> Ive come to the conclusion that Dr Bates was a madman who had a nervous breakdown, and although he had some good ideas they were overshadowed by his ego and personal problems.
Even his critics say there are years of his life with no idea of where he was or what he was doing after he was sacked by the optomotrist association or whatever you call it, then he must have had the breakdown, and then made a comeback with the bates method.
However things like palming and swining and sunning are good ideas, but to tell people to stop wearing glasses is madness.
I feel I have to add my comments here, to keep every novice and other students in high morale in regards of doing Bates.
There is nothing wrong and dangerous in stopping wearing glasses. Everyone considering natrual exercises should STOP WEARING GLASSES except in highly dangerous situation like driving a vechicle. OK, there will be situations where you need glasses to be able to do yoru work. But, except that most of the day I believe everyone shoudl be able to not wear them and go without.
The problem is that blur makes you unhappy, nervous, etc, like when watching TV. But, in like house cleaning, cooking, going to shops etc there are many hours in a day you can spend without glasses. But there is a blur, you say. Of course there is, you have poor vision, that's why you are here and you have made the first step: to fix it naturaly. The best decision of your life!
Now, the problem is accepting that blur, and go out of habit of strain.
Big blur goes away after a week or two of not wearing glasses, as the eyes are relaxing from glasses. Glasses are pasivising the eye, not letting it move, fluctuate, converge and diverge, accomodate. First you have to relax your eyes from that and then learn how to use eyes properly. How to coordinate those few parts of the eye to create clear picture. That's where Dr Bates is helping. And accept the blur, relax and breathe, let your natural impulses and reflexes to work in your eyes, that's all.
Dr Bates' exercises are harmless and relaxing, if you do them you should benefit eventually.
fungy,
In your comments Underlaying may be your restless nature, so try some more active exercises, with jumping and singing as Janet Goodrich has modeled Bates.
BAtes gives you basic idea how your eye should work:
1. effortless
2. no strain
3. shifts, short and quick
4. accommodates - shortens and lengthens
5. don't try to see the whole area with one glance, that's strain
6. central fixation, you see just small area the most clearly, and therefore you have to shift a lot
7. saccadic movement of the eye, fluctuates, tremors
I think there is more,...
And I can't stop asking myself "WHY IS NOONE TELLING US THIS".
Today's optometrists won't tell. they just put you into glasses.
I stopped wearing glasses as soon as I entered traing by doing a workshop. I was only driving with glasses for a few months.
The day I stopped my contacts I felt so FREE. in blur, unportected but so free, light.
There is emotional charge in not being able to stand the blur, you can just be ready for that or not.
It took me long time to feel bates works, I started with 3cups (3DImages) as initial eye gym, and just recently started feeling shifting really works, my imagionation is getting better,...
so, as you can see there is a lot of people that felt benefits. You just have to give yourslf chance, try it.
Quote:I cant go without glasses, so what can I do ??
Get a teacher to help you! A good teacher will show you how and will encourage you.
Itâs admirable that you tried so hard to go without glasses for a long period of time. I can understand your frustration that you feel since you experienced no progress. But donât confuse that with the method not working! Everyone has different talents, some people can teach themselves to play guitar, others need a teacher. Itâs the same with learning to see. What you have done is to take a go at teaching yourself to see without glasses and it didnât work. But thatâs ok! Itâs not a failure, itâs a lesson. Perhaps there is a teacher out there that you can learn from.
fuggles Wrote:Ive come to the conclusion that Dr Bates was a madman who had a nervous breakdown, and although he had some good ideas they were overshadowed by his ego and personal problems.
Even his critics say there are years of his life with no idea of where he was or what he was doing after he was sacked by the optomotrist association or whatever you call it, then he must have had the breakdown, and then made a comeback with the bates method.
However things like palming and swining and sunning are good ideas, but to tell people to stop wearing glasses is madness.
I've been waiting a couple weeks for you to proclaim something like this. It was obvious you were on the verge of breaking down, and you've projected your own inner turmoil and frustration outward to the idea that someone else is insane instead. Like others who have had little success with the Bates method, you have given no indication that you have actually tried it. Your posts over the last year and a half suggest to me that you haven't put any work into carefully practicing any exercises and have limited it to doing a little palming, and you've never tried examining and describing in detail what you're doing in order to seek clarification on what you could be doing better, as I suggest in the "Am I doing this exercise right?" post that's stickied at the top of the forum. Your posts suggest that you've spent your time being distracted by every other little idea you come across such as nutrition, dentistry, ball tossing, magnets, and now the idea of improving your vision with a series of reduced prescriptions only. You joined this forum and yet have completely avoided using it for the very purpose it's here.
You've mentioned the period where Bates disappeared and left New York, but you seem to be confused about the timeline or events, suggesting to me that you briefly read something that you can't really remember and in any case didn't actually give it much thought or look into it and are just using it as ammunition to lash out with. I say this only because it's a continuation of your theme of not putting any thought or self-awareness into what you're doing, which is what the Bates method is all about: learning what you're doing with your mind and eyes that's causing poor vision so that you may stop the bad habits and acquire better patterns of use.
I don't know if you're incapable of going about this correctly because you're so young or for some other reason, but I ask that if you're insistent on denouncing it all that you so with productive criticism (not just lashing out) in the Critics & Skeptics forum that I have reserved for such purpose so that the rest of us don't need to wade through it while trying to use the forum for its main purpose. If it's just because you're young (I don't know how to say that without sounding condescending), then you might want to hold off and think about coming back and starting over in 5 years or so.
Part of this is my own fault, because I haven't structured this site or forum in the most optimal way to support the process. When I have some time in the future I think I'd like to start researching models and theories of how humans learn. Presenting information as it is already published (Bates and other author's books and articles on this site) and how I understand it (my many posts on this forum) while taking advantage of other people's knowledge, experience and points of view (through their posts on this forum) isn't working out as productively as I would like, and I believe a more complex learning structure that is more detailed and linear while at the same time being adaptive to individual needs would be helpful. It's a process of changing our own tools by using the very tools that we need to change, possible but obviously tricky. It's possible for people to find their own way through this by doing the work and getting assistance when needed, as the forum is currently structured, but something tells me that it could be much better.
Dave
who cares ? Im a normal human being that behaves normally. If something doesn't work, I get frustrated, so what ?
For the reasons I have stated, I believe my frustration is justified. I have given genuine reasons.
I have kept my emotions in check and have not said anything absurd or ridiculous. Ive been open and honest.
Ive been calm and kept my posts as simple to understand as possible.
Again. my main point is, going without glasses is simply too dangerous for me, I am going down the path of getting reduced lenses.
Ive been open to ideas and suggestions throughout, yet I dont know why palming doesnt work for me. I hope it does as I get reduced lenses and my eyes adjust.
FlowerPower Wrote:I feel I have to add my comments here, to keep every novice and other students in high morale in regards of doing Bates.
There is nothing wrong and dangerous in stopping wearing glasses. Everyone considering natrual exercises should STOP WEARING GLASSES except in highly dangerous situation like driving a vechicle. OK, there will be situations where you need glasses to be able to do yoru work. But, except that most of the day I believe everyone shoudl be able to not wear them and go without.
The problem is that blur makes you unhappy, nervous, etc, like when watching TV. But, in like house cleaning, cooking, going to shops etc there are many hours in a day you can spend without glasses. But there is a blur, you say. Of course there is, you have poor vision, that's why you are here and you have made the first step: to fix it naturaly. The best decision of your life!
Now, the problem is accepting that blur, and go out of habit of strain.
Big blur goes away after a week or two of not wearing glasses, as the eyes are relaxing from glasses. Glasses are pasivising the eye, not letting it move, fluctuate, converge and diverge, accomodate. First you have to relax your eyes from that and then learn how to use eyes properly. How to coordinate those few parts of the eye to create clear picture. That's where Dr Bates is helping. And accept the blur, relax and breathe, let your natural impulses and reflexes to work in your eyes, that's all.
Dr Bates' exercises are harmless and relaxing, if you do them you should benefit eventually.
fungy,
In your comments Underlaying may be your restless nature, so try some more active exercises, with jumping and singing as Janet Goodrich has modeled Bates.
BAtes gives you basic idea how your eye should work:
1. effortless
2. no strain
3. shifts, short and quick
4. accommodates - shortens and lengthens
5. don't try to see the whole area with one glance, that's strain
6. central fixation, you see just small area the most clearly, and therefore you have to shift a lot
7. saccadic movement of the eye, fluctuates, tremors
I think there is more,...
And I can't stop asking myself "WHY IS NOONE TELLING US THIS".
Today's optometrists won't tell. they just put you into glasses.
I stopped wearing glasses as soon as I entered traing by doing a workshop. I was only driving with glasses for a few months.
The day I stopped my contacts I felt so FREE. in blur, unportected but so free, light.
There is emotional charge in not being able to stand the blur, you can just be ready for that or not.
It took me long time to feel bates works, I started with 3cups (3DImages) as initial eye gym, and just recently started feeling shifting really works, my imagionation is getting better,...
so, as you can see there is a lot of people that felt benefits. You just have to give yourslf chance, try it.
What do you mean, 'not dangerous' . What does that mean in your definition .
Here is my definition .
Dangerous when crossing the road.
Dangerous when shaving.
Difficult to look for something when dropped on the floor.
Dangerous when walking down the road.
Dangerous when driving
Did you mean dangerous to the eyes ? If so, I agree with you, it isn't dangerous to the eyes.
I really sympathize with where you are coming from. I have been on this NVI journey since April this year but one of the first things I did was get a pair of reduced prescription glasses. I started off pretty much where you are (-4.25. -5.75 plus some asig). I wear my reduced lenses most of the time and could not survive without them. I have also recently been going without them more often but it's hard for me to find occasions when I can do this so invariably end up wearing them.
I may get greater improvements when not wearing glasses but its seems marginal compared to the benefit of having relatively clear vision when I wear my reduced prescriptions. In fact just recently I was questioning wearing reduced prescriptions and so put my full strength ones back on. After a while though I could notice a strain and pulling in my eyes so I'd like to believe that my eyes have got used to a weaker lens. The other big difference I noticed is that I was starting to develop presbyopia but this only becomes a problem when I wear my original glasses. So maybe this can also be fixed by not wearing glasses.
Whilst vision improvement is currently a big part of my life I get much pleasure watching TV with my glasses on rather then not wearing them as Bates would suggest. But then in his days I am sure most of his patients did not have eyes that were as bad as ours.
