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+--- Thread: notes on looking at details and changing (/showthread.php?tid=1571)
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - sean - 01-10-2011
Hammer
Re feedback from your own experience, I agree. In my case I get a certain sensation in my eyes and nearly always some watering. This is a help in searching for details as I often experience this even though the sight doesn't improve much - it lets me know I am on the right track and the clear(er) vision follows - in fact, once I get 'the feeling' the clarity always comes.
Pikachu
Yes, as you say in a recent post it's communications. On that front the Bates book leaves a lot to be desired (in my humblest of opinions). David was I think trying to get a simultaneous 'chat' thing going (or whatever the technical term is). I can see how that might help people get over the semantic difficulties - you know, if there were a few people interacting online 'live'. However I don't think that would suit me so it's as well that I think David is doing just fine by this method and it all makes perfect sense to me (I reread the posts on this, and another, thread to this end). (Just as an aside I was looking at a Loeb translation of a Latin classic yesterday, a reprint of a translation originally made in about 1920. With Loeb you get the Latin on the left hand page and the English translation on the facing page. To be honest the English translation was so odd, so dated, that I actually found the Latin text was an aid to understanding the English rather than vice-versa.)
David
Just one thing occurs to me, your initial emphasis was on imagination at the start of this thread (Bates' description of him looking at the picture and imagining it was a cave et) and now you have moved on to incorporate the idea of shifting. I have no problem with that at all and the idea of short shifting somehow stimulating saccadic eye movement seemed to me to be implicit in what you have said anyway. I presume the imagination thing is also relevant (this all being work in progress etc)? I say this only because it seems such a powerful thing to myself - but maybe that's just me.
One last thing: on the basis that the simplest and most obvious explanation is usually the right one, I am increasingly convinced that any setbacks in practising this looking for details method is down to the old tendency of looking at more than a very small area to raise its head again. As with other methods/ practices when you get used to making progress you then incorporate what you have mastered into the existing framework, which is to try to take in everything at once. It's very subtle but I am increasingly convinced of it. I bet I'm not the only one falling for it!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - sean - 01-10-2011
Just to clarify my last two points in my last post (if anyone's interested)
Imagination: I don't consciously use imagination in this searching for details method although David did seem to imply this in in his earlier posts at the start of this thread. Perhaps the important thing for me is that I have already demonstrated its efficacity to myself and this is all that needed to be done, and it just comes automatically when you search for detail.(?)
Re my last point earlier: perhaps this image might explain it. Think of all the points in the visual field as being magnetized - say positively. Well, it's as if my mind, which has been conditioned over many years to grabbing the picture and swallowing it whole, has also become positively charged, so when I'm looking at the detail the urge is always there to look away from the details and to turn around the other way. It's like this is such a basic orientation that my mind tries to do it at all times even when it's consciously doing the opposite and trying to do the right thing (look at one point at a time).
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 01-10-2011
seetheleaves Wrote:David,
Does the following personal experience describe these 'short shifts' or is it unrelated?
Whenever I have reached a level of relaxation and 'clear flash' in which I no longer even have to think about keeping the clear flash going or maintaining my relaxation (it just happens on its own), I notice that when I begin to look around (instead of just at the Snellen) I can physically feel my eyes moving back and forth in tiny, constant, horizontal (and rather rapid) shifts. It's a very odd feeling because it is exactly the opposite of the more static feeling I am used to with low vision. It's like my eyes are scanning the surroundings on their own, back and forth, back and forth, with tiny shifts over the 'picture' of the room, taking everything in. It's extremely relaxing but a little disconcerting because my mind is like: 'what are my eyes doing?! And then of course that thought causes my eye movements to slow and then cease alltogether and I'm back to poor vision.
Thanks for helping us understand this concept!
(Oh and I can definitely see how moving into a long swing at the point when my eyes are shifting on their own would drag them back into lowered vision - it's like they already have a natural rhythm and to perform a long swing would push them out of that rhythm)
Yes, that sounds right. It won't feel altogether pleasant at first for anyone who has been seeing wrong for years, and your mind will resist it even though it's working. The physical sensation of the eyes moving is probably because they aren't used to doing it (but see how they started doing it as if they've just been waiting and waiting to do it forever?), and I think should go away in time.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 01-10-2011
sean Wrote:David
Just one thing occurs to me, your initial emphasis was on imagination at the start of this thread (Bates' description of him looking at the picture and imagining it was a cave et) and now you have moved on to incorporate the idea of shifting. I have no problem with that at all and the idea of short shifting somehow stimulating saccadic eye movement seemed to me to be implicit in what you have said anyway. I presume the imagination thing is also relevant (this all being work in progress etc)? I say this only because it seems such a powerful thing to myself - but maybe that's just me.
One last thing: on the basis that the simplest and most obvious explanation is usually the right one, I am increasingly convinced that any setbacks in practising this looking for details method is down to the old tendency of looking at more than a very small area to raise its head again. As with other methods/ practices when you get used to making progress you then incorporate what you have mastered into the existing framework, which is to try to take in everything at once. It's very subtle but I am increasingly convinced of it. I bet I'm not the only one falling for it!
Yeah, still a work in progress. It can be very useful when something is blurry to imagine what could be there and what it would look like if it were clear, as it gets the visual system to start looking for evidence of it in bits and pieces instead of just staring vacantly at it and hoping something will change.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 01-10-2011
Nancy Wrote:I remember Dr. Bates writing about people who are staring in their sleep and so waking up with strained vision, so you're not alone. He recommended you do 50 or 100 long swings before bed to break up the stare. I haven't tried this, as my eyes are most relaxed when I wake up, but if you try it let me know if it helps.
Nancy and Andres,
I have tried the palming advice before sleeping, after sleeping and when waking up during a REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep, and this relaxes my eyes very much.
In fact I wake up with no strain in my eyes now.
I think palming in bed when waking up during a REM is very efficient, and I have read that people often wake up during the REM sleep, so why not just take the chance to palm then, or if you can't sleep you can use the time to palm in bed :
.I have abandoned the long swing before sleep since I have no problem to unlock to the details,
there is thus no meaning for me to do the long swing and the long swing seems to not improve my vision either.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 01-10-2011
sean Wrote:Re my last point earlier: perhaps this image might explain it. Think of all the points in the visual field as being magnetized - say positively. Well, it's as if my mind, which has been conditioned over many years to grabbing the picture and swallowing it whole, has also become positively charged, so when I'm looking at the detail the urge is always there to look away from the details and to turn around the other way. It's like this is such a basic orientation that my mind tries to do it at all times even when it's consciously doing the opposite and trying to do the right thing (look at one point at a time).
I found that it was actually painful to look at a detail of a certain size, particularly in the distance, so I had built up an aversion to it on top of any other problems. Not the dull pain of strain, but a small sharp pain on the front of my eye.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 01-10-2011
David Wrote:Yes, that sounds right. It won't feel altogether pleasant at first for anyone who has been seeing wrong for years, and your mind will resist it even though it's working. The physical sensation of the eyes moving is probably because they aren't used to doing it (but see how they started doing it as if they've just been waiting and waiting to do it forever?), and I think should go away in time.
Yay!!! Great! I'm feeling really confidant that I'm on the right track these days - a good combination of looking for details and short-swinging with long swings and palming thrown in whenever I notice strain. Thanks for all of your guidance, even though I trust my experiences as being positive, it's great to come here and have my progress validated. And I LOVE knowing that my eyes are starting to take charge and do what they feel is natural on their own - this is a truly amazing process.
Thank you, everyone!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 01-11-2011
I am considering to do this all stuff "searching for details", short swing and so on, with my lenses on,
because it is much easier to do the short shifts when you see more clear with the lenses on.
In fact you can manage to do even shorter shifts with the lenses on and it feels more relaxed too.
Of course the lenses must fit the eyes so perfectly well that they don't cause pain or strain in the eyes,
else you need to remove them, but the lenses today is in fact fitting really well.
So if you just have learnt to know that you are doing the shifts/swings normally in an effortless way,
also learnt that you palm when you feel strain in the eyes,
then under these circumstances, do you think it matters if you have the lenses on or not ? ?
The question is: Can you improve the eyesight with the lenses on when the vision habits are normal ?
Maybe someone here, please, can answer for all the expertise on this site that I haven't yet grasped.
Tough I know that the general advice is to take the lenses off for good of course,
but I have a "feeling" that this concerns them who don't know how strain feels,
it concerns those who isn't aware of their relaxation checklist !
I know glasses are worsening the sight due to the worsened peripheral sharpness, preventing the eyes to move,
so you are doomed if you wear glasses according to my view, but this is not the case when it comes to lenses (maybe
).
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 01-11-2011
This summer I had a carpenter to look at my roof and then he had to count the roofing tiles on my roof of my house.
Then I should count the roofing tiles myself and I got lost, had to start over and over to count them.
The other day I thought about it and I tried to count small details, and if you do the short shifts in a relaxed normal way you can count them (hopfully), but if you strain you easily get lost.
So it is maybe another check for the checklist. ^-^
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 01-12-2011
I read about this kind of thing in one of the vision books but I don't remember which one, maybe Tom Quackenbush's. I use it for counting fenceposts or steps in the distance - getting the right count isn't as important as training your eyes to look at one point at a time. As you said if you're not using central fixation, you can't do it.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 01-15-2011
Looking at center point is once described by genious Nancy as something like a "connection vector", like a beam of energy, like a weak slow lightning.
When the gaze shifts the connection vector is also moving with the gaze.
I see this connection vector all the time by now, it doesn't matter if I lock to details or if I don't lock to details.
Today I just looked at the floor for some while as I wathed TV, and shifted my gaze from imagined periods there on the floor beside the TV, within a small area,
and I think I understood by doing this that what I really did was to find the most effortless position of the connection vector, because I locked to imagined periods and observed the real details that just happened to be there at the same positions as the imagined periods.
And I noticed that my eyesight was improved.
So this means to me that "searching for details" in combination with palming is actually a way to learn to feel the tension in your eyemuscles,
and thus to learn how to relax the eyemuscles as you learn how to relax the eyemuscles.
In other words you learn how to reset the "connection vector" into its relaxed state ! W
W ! The short shifts makes it easier to feel the eyemuscles and thus it makes it easier to relax them.
Short shifts are better than long shifts as the short shifts are more near the "connection vector" in its "relaxed reset state", and thus produces a more relaxed result. This is about producing relaxation. If you don't produce relaxation your eyes will be trying to kill themselves with bluruhhuhu.
For instance it is then easy to understand that the long swing is just the "connection vector" in its relaxed state that is letting the world pass by without caring about it.
So if you can reset the "connection vector" with "searching for details" and palming, then the long swing is meaningless to exercise, because the long swing becomes a consequence and not some source that will let you gain from the source.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 01-16-2011
Well, I'll take credit for the "connection vector" term because that's how it felt to me, and I'm glad it helped you so much. The idea itself of staying connected to what you're looking at comes from Peter Grunwald. When he told us last summer that we should remain connected to what we're trying to see, even if it's blurry at the beginning, it was a big insight to me that I took in whole-heartedly. I could see myself supposedly trying to see a tree 10 feet away, for example, but my connection vector (really, my awareness) only reaching out to 3 or 4 feet -- no wonder I couldn't see it clearly!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 01-16-2011
Nancy Wrote:Well, I'll take credit for the "connection vector" term because that's how it felt to me, and I'm glad it helped you so much. The idea itself of staying connected to what you're looking at comes from Peter Grunwald. When he told us last summer that we should remain connected to what we're trying to see, even if it's blurry at the beginning, it was a big insight to me that I took in whole-heartedly. I could see myself supposedly trying to see a tree 10 feet away, for example, but my connection vector (really, my awareness) only reaching out to 3 or 4 feet -- no wonder I couldn't see it clearly!
I have a little Chameleon theory when it comes to the "connection vector", please don't believe it without questioning it:
This "connection vector" should move all the time to maintain a "relaxed state",
because the "relaxed state" must be maintained,
else the ideal "relaxed state" changes to become a tension state instead,
thus the circumstances changes (counteracts) when there is nothing relative.
When people overstrain their eyes at daytime,
then they relax so much during sleep (as a counteract) that their "connection vector" becomes even absolutely still and fixed,
and thus they get tension while sleeping :-\ , because their "relaxed state" turned into a tension state.
I think this is why natural vision training is so difficult to master.
Also one purpose of the REM is to break the fixed position of the "connection vector", and thus REM breaks tension.
The problem though is that the REM sleep becomes too vivid and thus you might even wake up.
Palming helps to some extent, but not completely.
There is other cause factors as well that makes you strain and palming cannot cure the causes, it just reduces the consequences.
So it might be that this is not so easy after all, and that is why Bates method is covering so much.
But, when you shall relax muscles you start with the biggest muscles right, so I guess there is some kind of a priority order
in how you shall relax, and I think "central fixation" with palming is most important.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 01-17-2011
Before anyone accuses me of "inventing" something that already exists, I believe my connection vector is Tom Quackenbush's nose feather or Carina Goodrich's magic nose pencil, to reach out just the right distance at just the right angle to make contact with what you're looking at. I resisted this idea when I first read it, feeling like Pinocchio (I already have to deal with these glasses, now I have to carry this long nose thing around too?). Anyway, Hammer, I agree you about this vector/pencil/feather remaining in a relaxed state sto it can constantly move to focus on what's being looked at.
To me the benefit of the long swing is to get the vector/pencil/feather used to moving freely. I wouldn't call it meaningless, but I do think it's less necessary as you learn to stare less and less. Note for me staring can still be insidious -- I can catch myself staring and surprise myself, when I thought I had moved way beyond this bad habit. (Oh, the need to pat myself on the back is so seductive!). So I expect I'll need to do long swings for a while. Plus they're fun and they feel good!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Pikachu - 01-17-2011
@Nancy: I was about to mention the similarity between the two concepts. I have a question for you: How does one consistently keep this nosefeather, nosepencil, connection vector thingy in mind throughout the entire day? I have problems keeping it in mind for more than a few minutes.