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+--- Thread: notes on looking at details and changing (/showthread.php?tid=1571)
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - JMartinC4 - 01-17-2011
Here is my new 'connection vector' idea/phrase: "Share the Light." I am going to remember that I am 'sharing the light' with whatever or whomever I'm looking at or wherever I'm looking. We are 'sharing the light'. If I'm alone or only looking at inanimate objects, then I am still 'sharing the light' with the light.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 01-17-2011
Pikachu, I don't consciously think of the connection vector as such. What I do when I'm present and aware is to realize the connection with what I'm looking at, really feeling it. JMartinC4 wrote about sharing the light but to me the connection is more than just visual: seeing/light is only one aspect of it. (You know how you can "feel" your friend's mood when you look at him?) So I guess I just focus on staying connected to my environment, and then I automatically see more clearly. Thanks for helping me to clarify this concept for myself. Now I just have to remember to do it and not tune out!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 02-10-2011
David,
Do you have any advice on searching for details when looking at a small light with a halo around it?
Obviously, the halo doesn't actually exist, but when I'm looking for details it's all I see so I just shift back and forth on the halo but I'm not having any luck with the image clearing up - the halo never disappears. I'm pretty sure I'm not trying to force the image to come together, I feel very relaxed. But all I get is the halo growing and shrinking and no clear vision of the light in the center of the halo.
arghargh. :-\
Thanks for any advice!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 02-14-2011
seetheleaves Wrote:David,
Do you have any advice on searching for details when looking at a small light with a halo around it?
Obviously, the halo doesn't actually exist, but when I'm looking for details it's all I see so I just shift back and forth on the halo but I'm not having any luck with the image clearing up - the halo never disappears. I'm pretty sure I'm not trying to force the image to come together, I feel very relaxed. But all I get is the halo growing and shrinking and no clear vision of the light in the center of the halo.
arghargh. :-\
Thanks for any advice!
A light source is good because it's plenty bright for you to see all the details that are there. Otherwise it's the same as looking at anything else. When it's blurry with the halo, you should inspect the halo and look for the smallest possible points of detail in it, even if you can't find them. There are at least a few ways to do this.
I should take a moment to elaborate on something. This is as good a spot as any. You can imagine the smallest possible speck of detail of an object by considering what it would look like close up, and how small the smallest speck of detail is at the distance you can see it best close up. At a farther distance, you of course can't see something that small, but you can imagine it just with the idea you have in your mind about how small the point is. You don't even have to be able to visualize it. So when you look at something, you immediately look for such a smallest possible point anywhere on the object (wherever your eyes are drawn to). Then as soon as you've established after an instant whether you can either see such a small point or only imagine that it's there, immediately turn your attention to another point. It's kind of a matter of considering it as, "Ok, I can't see such a small point here, but I've got an idea how small it is and I'm just going to say it's right there and move on to another point a short distance away." And you keep repeating it.
So in doing that you're accomplishing the narrowing of your attention to the smallest possible point, not stopping too long on a point, and being actively aware of what you're looking at. People with normal vision do this a matter of routine, all the time. You have to re-establish it by repetition, but you can keep reminding yourself to do it all day, and you'll forget, but if you keep reminding yourself, you'll do it more and more often, and more and more easily while being able to do other tasks at the same time. So this is something you can do all day, when you don't have the time to do the whole practice of shifting back and forth between two close together points.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 02-14-2011
I got the fun idea this evening that I should try the magnifier in windows to see if there was any oppositional movement in it ;D, used the lens mode , check out if you like:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://windows.microsoft.com/en-CA/windows7/Make-items-on-the-screen-appear-bigger-Magnifier">http://windows.microsoft.com/en-CA/wind ... -Magnifier</a><!-- m -->
And yes it was actually very evident, the more you magnify the more oppositional movement there is.
But when I use the magnifier with no magnification it is not that evident anymore of course, but the oppositional movement must still be there of course even if it is less evident. Do you think this magnifier can be used in some way, maybe to show how a person with normal eyesight sees. So then a myope can start with for instance 300 %, then decrease to 200 % and then try 100%, and at 100% the myope should be able to keep the oppositional movement.
I also wondered to myself if this oppositional movement is a key trigger for the eye (mind) to relax the spasm (constant tension), because as the oppositional movement is there then the vision system knows for sure that there is right visual habits, and then the mind can relax the spasm more than if there wasn't any oppositional movement.
So the mind mixed up shortsightedness and longsightedness, the mind believes that a myope is longsighted. When the longsighted person doesn't see something he has to accumulate very much and thus stares at the point, then the mind increases the spasm to easify the task for the longsighted person. When the spasm increased for the longsighted person he can see more effortless, and thus the spasm can be decrease a little, and so on. But for a myope the mind missed the target and increases the spasm as the myope looks at near distance very much. A myope doesn't get more effortless vision due to the spasm so the mind doesnt decrease the spasm at all due to this, but an d this is the point when the myope learns oppositional movement the mind can decrease the spasm, and thus the myope can see more effortless, and thus the regulation converges.
I have to try that, he he ! I know it might take long time, but who cares, the way is the goal.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - DaniFixe - 02-15-2011
seetheleaves Wrote:David Wrote:Yes, that sounds right. It won't feel altogether pleasant at first for anyone who has been seeing wrong for years, and your mind will resist it even though it's working. The physical sensation of the eyes moving is probably because they aren't used to doing it (but see how they started doing it as if they've just been waiting and waiting to do it forever?), and I think should go away in time.
Yay!!! Great! I'm feeling really confidant that I'm on the right track these days - a good combination of looking for details and short-swinging with long swings and palming thrown in whenever I notice strain. Thanks for all of your guidance, even though I trust my experiences as being positive, it's great to come here and have my progress validated. And I LOVE knowing that my eyes are starting to take charge and do what they feel is natural on their own - this is a truly amazing process.
Thank you, everyone!
I have experienced something similar. I'm noticing small details around 15/20 minutes per day and i can see that my vision seems a wave,that goes better and worse,better and worse...and sometimes feel my eyes wants to release from something that keep them stuck. For the next days i will try to do the same for longer perior to see what happens.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 03-06-2011
David Wrote:seetheleaves Wrote:David,
Do you have any advice on searching for details when looking at a small light with a halo around it?
Obviously, the halo doesn't actually exist, but when I'm looking for details it's all I see so I just shift back and forth on the halo but I'm not having any luck with the image clearing up - the halo never disappears. I'm pretty sure I'm not trying to force the image to come together, I feel very relaxed. But all I get is the halo growing and shrinking and no clear vision of the light in the center of the halo.
arghargh. :-\
Thanks for any advice!
A light source is good because it's plenty bright for you to see all the details that are there. Otherwise it's the same as looking at anything else. When it's blurry with the halo, you should inspect the halo and look for the smallest possible points of detail in it, even if you can't find them. There are at least a few ways to do this.
I should take a moment to elaborate on something. This is as good a spot as any. You can imagine the smallest possible speck of detail of an object by considering what it would look like close up, and how small the smallest speck of detail is at the distance you can see it best close up. At a farther distance, you of course can't see something that small, but you can imagine it just with the idea you have in your mind about how small the point is. You don't even have to be able to visualize it. So when you look at something, you immediately look for such a smallest possible point anywhere on the object (wherever your eyes are drawn to). Then as soon as you've established after an instant whether you can either see such a small point or only imagine that it's there, immediately turn your attention to another point. It's kind of a matter of considering it as, "Ok, I can't see such a small point here, but I've got an idea how small it is and I'm just going to say it's right there and move on to another point a short distance away." And you keep repeating it.
So in doing that you're accomplishing the narrowing of your attention to the smallest possible point, not stopping too long on a point, and being actively aware of what you're looking at. People with normal vision do this a matter of routine, all the time. You have to re-establish it by repetition, but you can keep reminding yourself to do it all day, and you'll forget, but if you keep reminding yourself, you'll do it more and more often, and more and more easily while being able to do other tasks at the same time. So this is something you can do all day, when you don't have the time to do the whole practice of shifting back and forth between two close together points.
Ok, so as an update: I have been working with 'lights and halos' since reading this quite some time ago. I have to say - it hasn't been easy or obvious. But I DO see myself making progress. To give everyone an idea of what I'm dealing with - I have a small string of christmas-sized lights that I like to practice seeing from about 7 feet away when I'm really relaxed (halos irritate me alot so it's best to start in a good mood
)David I interpreted your post in 2 different ways and they have both helped me. So here it goes:
1) The first way is to take this quote and apply it literally:
Quote:You can imagine the smallest possible speck of detail of an object by considering what it would look like close up, and how small the smallest speck of detail is at the distance you can see it best close up.How I do this is by completely 'letting go' of my field of vision - letting it blur out entirely until it no longer makes much visual sense to me - and then almost simultaneously I imagine that 7 feet away is actually more like 12 inches (where my computer screen is and my visual acuity is highest). Strangely enough, as soon as I 'accept' that what I am looking at is only 12 inches away I am able to relax far more completely and the halo starts to thin and the light in the middle becomes a more obvious point. I believe this is because once I have 'tricked' myself into thinking that I am looking 12 inches away then my shifting habits become automatic and easy and I'm no longer trying to 'catch' what I believe is out of my reach, 7 feet away.
1) The second way is to do what you've explained in full - i.e. I look for (usually imagine) the smallest possible detail within the halo / light. This is difficult because the light is so small so the halo is small and I can easily fall back into seeing the entire halo / light at once without switching between the details within them. So to avoid this I am moving my eyes much more quickly than I normally do on larger objects. And it works - it really does - but it's not easy to keep up and I realize that this is because my attention is still very rough and shaky and jumpy rather than steady and smooth - my eyes want to fly off in another direction completely instead of staying on something so small and shifting within it.
SO this quote helps me alot in that situation:
Quote:It's kind of a matter of considering it as, "Ok, I can't see such a small point here, but I've got an idea how small it is and I'm just going to say it's right there and move on to another point a short distance away." And you keep repeating it.It works well - I'm acknowledging quickly that I either see or imagine I see a tiny tiny point and then I immediately move on and repeat.
Now the great news is that although I still see that halo (argh!!) I know that I am improving (training?) my visual movements alot because:
I have a Snellen chart that is directly to the left and about 3 feet behind this string of lights. Whenever these lights with halos start to be too intense for my attention I flick my eyes towards the Snellen chart as a kind of rest or break, while still maintaining the constant shifting movements. And guess what?! Yesterday I saw - from 10 feet away - the 15feet line!!!! PERFECTLY!!! I couldn't believe it! It made me so happy because I usually see the 15feet line as either a smudge, or a barely visible array of empty squares floating around, or a duplicate blur of something indistinguishable. To see letters and then to read the letters was such a great clear flash.
Thanks for your help with this - I'm going to keep working with these tiny lights and their tiny little halos until it all comes together. As of right now I can't imagine maintaining this degree of focus 100% of the time but I do believe that with practice it can happen. Onward!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 03-07-2011
seetheleaves,
As far as imagining a detail close up or far away, you can also just walk up to it and examine it to confirm how small the details are, so that there's no fooling yourself about how small the details really are when you go back to 7ft.
It's hard to keep up fast shifting when the shifts are large. You might be able to do it for a while, and with a little improvement in vision, but clear vision can't be maintained until the shifts are shorter, and you might have trouble getting clearer vision beyond a certain point until you shorten the shifts enough. The short distance of shifts and the size of a point you should look for are probably smaller than you think. And really it's smaller than you can perceive, so that no matter how good your vision becomes, it's sort of a game of continually trying to improve it in every moment of seeing. You can move your attention shorter distances than you can move your eyes, but when you move your attention, your eyes actually move too, whether you can notice it or not.
When you want to see something better, you look at it. If you want to see it better still, you look at smaller details of it and keep doing so until it's clear enough. You have to consider improving vision as a process in the context of what you're looking at. Better vision is the process of looking at what you want to see. Any improved clarity of the picture you perceive happens as a result of clear vision - the clear image isn't what I would call "good vision", but the result of it. Some people want better vision and yet they aren't willing to look at small details to get it, which doesn't make any sense.
And good vision is when you're actually shifting your attention and not just bouncing your eyes around for the sake of shifting. Bates mentioned that kind of movement:
Quote:In most cases of eccentric fixation, on the contrary, the eye quickly tires, and its appearance, with that of the face, is expressive of effort or strain. The ophthalmoscope(1) reveals that the eyeball moves at irregular intervals, from side to side, vertically or in other directions. These movements are often so extensive as to be manifest by ordinary inspection, and are sometimes sufficiently marked to resemble nystagmus.(2) Nervous movements of the eyelids may also be noted, either by ordinary inspection, or by lightly touching the lid of one eye while the other regards an object either at the near-point or the distance.
So to move your eyes faster and more effectively, you have stop them from moving uncontrollably or moving fast for the sake of going fast. It's like that Army quote someone mentioned, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
As soon as you open your eyes in the morning, remind yourself that there is no such thing as blur, and the only reason you perceive blur is you aren't looking at small enough details. That helps set the tone for the entire day.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 03-08-2011
David,
What you've explained makes alot of sense and it's exactly the instruction I needed to realign my focus. It makes complete sense that prioritizing attention rather than the mechanical aspect of shifting will allow my eye movements to be smoother and less physically perceptible to me. I'm still at a stage where I feel my eyes shifting back and forth over short distances when I'm looking for details - it's easy for me to get distracted by this feeling of shifting and meanwhile lose interest in what I'm actually looking at. Great - now I have the key! Thank you!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 03-08-2011
One thing I want to add. People with bad vision can perceive that with a point 90 degrees to their left (90 degrees is directly to your side, while 180 would be directly behind you), they can't see it as well until they turn and look at it. And they can notice the same with a point 45 degrees away from their current point, and probably even 20 degrees. They know they can't see things at these locations very well until they turn to look, including their eyes and/or head. But at some point they stop applying this concept to shorter distances, preferring instead to pretty much stare at the whole area without picking out anything. That doesn't work when the object is 90 degrees away, so why should it work when the object is 5 degrees away? It's arbitrary how far it is away. The same principle applies.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 03-08-2011
David, thanks very much for this last point about not moving my attention to something completely if I can see it "well enough". Fuzzy sort-of focus on what I'm looking at will continue to give me less than clear vision. I know how to do better! Thanks.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 03-14-2011
Hey there,
I just wanted to share why I think "looking at details" works,
simply because I have wondered why it works.
I am quite sure that this is an explanation,
but of course noone knows for sure,
but what do you think about these thoughts ?
A farsighted person has "rectus" eye muscles that is too tensed, in a way that they all equally pull the eye backward, so the eye become shorter.
A myopic person actually would have to do something similar to get less nearsighted.
In "looking at details" method the myopic person actually kind of "vibrates" the eyes backward so the eyes becomes shorter.
The key is thus to pull the eye backwards in a very soft manner by accumulating many very short eye movement shifts.
A myopic person also of course needs to relax the eyemuscles to prevent the eye muscles to fall into a "frozen" state, or so to say to energize the "batteries" that takes you to the normal dynamical states once again,
eyesight is not static, it is dynamic,
or an analogy from physics: there is no zero point, because it is floating around,
or another analogy is from the stockmarket that is driven dynamically by psychology for instance into dynamic states (courses) from day to day, our to our, minute to minute, micro second to micro second
, the shorter timeshifts the computers can operate on the more successful they are in trading many small gains into good profit in a safe way,a stockmarket that has collapsed is like a mypic persons eyes that has collapsed
.As you know vibrations also relaxes muscles, so one thing gives the other, this is some rule of nature due to a very complex world.
Doing long eye movements does not improve the myopia, at least this is my interpretation, but long eye movements improves astigmatism on the other hand.
When once you have learned "looking at details" then you realise that the eyes becomes more sensitive to a small degree of astigmatism, this is my experience.
I thus now think I will do some complementary eye movement arobics to keep the astigmatism under control, stabilize it.
Seeing double is astigmatism.
By the way Napoleon Bonaparte was really good at remebering faces and regognize faces. I have once read that his key was to look at the forehead of a person to accomplish this. So I think he kind of used the "looking at details" method after all.
I tried to do the same and recognize people at a very far distance away with the "looking at details" method, and it was fun actually . I won't tell what the result was on the other hand.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 03-16-2011
... also, for a myopic person, as "looking at details" is actually a way of avoiding to stare, this also relaxes the ciliary muscle, because you fool the mind to believe that you have reached perfect vision when you in fact have quite poor vision, so the consequence is that the vision improves. Well, I become more and more certain that all parts of the puzzle are there and that you just have to put them together once again.
Frankly I believe that the mystery of myopia already is solved here on this forum.
Thanks and Good Evening doctors ! ;D
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 03-18-2011
hammer, I think I pretty much agree, but as far as the small movements - the movements by themselves don't really improve vision, because the main problem isn't that the eyes aren't moving, but the way the brain is directed to work by means of what we tell it it to as far as how we think of things we look at the pattern of attention we use, and its interaction with the eyes, which as a result includes the eye movement.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 03-19-2011
David Wrote:hammer, I think I pretty much agree, but as far as the small movements - the movements by themselves don't really improve vision, because the main problem isn't that the eyes aren't moving, but the way the brain is directed to work by means of what we tell it it to as far as how we think of things we look at the pattern of attention we use, and its interaction with the eyes, which as a result includes the eye movement.
Dave,
I described my interpretation of the engineering view of the eyes,
that is the mechanical/hardware view of the eye and how it will work mechanically when the myopia improves.
I know this is very hard to realize but we/someone have to understand it,
else we are doing execises without actually knowing what we do, and that would be negative for the motivation.
I didn't mention the mental part (the "software") of the mind/brain that drives this mechanical/hardware view of the eyes.
But, you are right that myopia is a "software" problem.
I think you have described how the "software" shall work (in the looking at details method) in a very good way already,
as you say how to pay attention to the things we look at and so on.
I understand what you mean, but I still want to make sure that what you say makes sense also in the way the eye works mechanically. If I don't get the logics here I will be less determined, but I still think I see some logic in what I wrote in my last post. I know many people don't think this is important, simply because they don't have a clue to understand this, but maybe someone here on this forum anyway can give an answer to this. It doesn't matter if someone is a layman if this layman has read for instance many investigations thoroughly with common sense, then that layman actually is an expert on the matter,
How is your view of how the software improvement in the brain manifests in terms of the eye seen as a mechanical device/hardware in the actual moment of for instance a clear flash, when it comes to myopia.
Do you think the rectus muscles (by pulling the eyeball backwards) is responsible for shortening the eye when there is a clear flash ?