notes on looking at details and changing - Printable Version
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Re: notes on looking at details and changing - 2xtreme2fit - 11-26-2010
hammer Wrote:I think the increased awareness of attention is in fact the mind that is being cured.
I think we're going the correct way. Maybe the improvement will be measurable sometime later.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - sean - 11-26-2010
I am with you on this, that's pretty much how I see it too. I'm still very much in experimental mode in all this, still working out what works and what doesn't but I think I (we) are on the right path. Yesterday while doing this I found myself suddenly laughing out loud. Weird or what?
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 11-26-2010
Me too (three) about being in experimental mode but feeling like I'm on the right track, re-training my brain and eyes. From yesterday's blog:
Quote:Iâm surprised several times a day now by more clarity than Iâm used to on some object in my environment. I feel like Iâm slowly developing a better way of using my eyes.I don't want to fill up the forum with all the details of my progress, or lack of it, but some people may want to go read my blog post from yesterday and also a few days before, both about searching for details. I'm very glad David started this thread. Onward!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Deliverance - 11-27-2010
First, I've found that this is a great help for all us.
Becouse now, we all can throw to the trash statements like "I can't see!" ( What Nancy said.).
Is giving us more hope, more control over our mind, so we're learning things that we haven't noticed before!
Some of the feelings that Nancy says in his blog are happening to me... also I agree with Hammer.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 11-27-2010
People have a tendency to try to fix a blurry image by mentally trying to squish it down to the right clear size, or trying to push any double images together to be one. To do this, notice that you have to diffuse your attention over the whole offending area and stop looking for details for a moment. But there's an easy way to deal with it when things suddenly look messier and worse. Instead of thinking of it as a frustrating failure, be thankful for the explosion of detail that you just got. In looking at something, you shouldn't be trying to create order out of the chaos of blurry vision. In fact, your mentality should be the opposite: create more chaos. With anything blurry or any scattered details, you want to come in and mess it up even more, ripping it to shreds and separating the pieces out even more. At no point do you try to take the pieces and put them together. Your visual system will do that part of its job without any help from you, but only when you give up control of trying to put things together. So in doing this, you use blur and multiple images to actually assist you. Things need to get worse before they get better.
It's easy to say "be positive", and the general idea of positive thinking is powerful, but in a deceptively tricky situation like blurry vision you have to apply it in a specific way like this.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 11-27-2010
Thanks -- this is an additional help. When my vision shifts away from sort-of clarity to more blur or double images temporarily, I've been seeing it as my brain re-calibrating the visual system, not as a return to poor vision. Your way of looking at it is even better, though I must admit when I read "explosion of details" I got an image of a toddler throwing his toys all over the room! Maybe this means I need to play more and be more like a child with my seeing -- from what my mother has said, I think I started to lose my clear vision around age 3 if not sooner. It is so gratifying to see it returning. Thanks again.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 12-08-2010
I think your method is still very interesting, but I think people have still some problem to search for details in a dynamically relaxed way, especially beginners. Now, I just want to make clear that you have understod that I think that peripheral awareness (attention) improves the searching for details, because the details becomes clearer when you pay attention to the peripheral. This is because you look at the details in a much more relaxed way when you actually are aware of the periphery. But, I think peripheral awareness must be combined with shifting in the central vision field, else your eyes will fail to synchronize, and the result will be staring, this is important to know, this is quite evident to me that this is the case. I think the searching for details is the shifting component in the central vision field that is necessary. So, I will continue to just search for details like almost you recommend, but I will be much more aware of the peripheral in order to relax the whole visual system so I can search for details in a more relaxed way. Then I think I approach the problem from two directions that finally hopefully will cure the myopia twice as fast. So, there seems to be not only one key, but instead several keys that you just get via insight or deep insight, these keys together will all ease, ease, ease so each key becomes easier to use, even if it was quite easy already before, but who cares, this must become easier for us. I will try this from now on.
Please, would you like to comment this, I am curious about your opinion on this, and maybe advice on how to dynamically relax the searching for details, because this is a component that is missing maybe ? Palming is not completely what I search for, because you cannot combine it with awareness of the details practically in daily life, if you know what I mean, peripheral attention is better because it relaxes your mind always, and also I see already totally black when I palm.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 12-10-2010
I'm not wrapping my head around how peripheral awareness is a key thing to practice, so I'm not convinced yet, but keep working with it and share more thoughts as you have them.
I think things need to be better separated into two categories. Palming and other things I'd like to call maybe "relaxation conditioning exercises" or something like that, while the practice of using the eyes the way people with normal vision do is a different thing but really it's what the conditioning is preparing you for. All the conditioning exercises have been emphasized a lot, and I think people get confused as far as the right context for those exercises. For example, people try to practice applying the swing to everything they look at, but it isn't appropriate to actually be using it as part of the moment to moment seeing process throughout the whole day, at least not the way they're doing it. Or they try to apply relaxation to their seeing process all day, when they would be better served focusing on relaxation in a specific way during some free moments but doing something entirely different in their process of seeing in every moment throughout the day. And then they combine several things to try to put it all together, trying to relax their eyes and mind by whatever method they've taken to, while thinking of everything moving, while trying to see best where they're looking (or seeing worse where they're not looking)... And it all turns into a horrible mess of those general ideas that don't fit together neatly in an easy to practice process of seeing. And that way of going about things just reinforces the diffused thinking that's a hallmark of blurry vision, avoiding any specifics of confusion and trying to make it all work without clear attention to how exactly to apply each piece.
So what I've done with the article is tried to describe a specific way to get into the routine of using the eyes correctly, but without much focus on the exercises that may help condition or prepare people for it. So as far as the part about using the eyes correctly goes, I feel like it's a matter of refining how I'm describing things and taking certain angles in how I describe them, to ensure that people do exactly the right things. People interpret different meanings from things, but I think if I use a certain type of language it can better approach a point where there's no room for confusion.
And then as far as the exercises, I'm not convinced right now about exactly what all has value, and how or why. People seem to get some sort of benefit from all kinds of crazy things, and I'm uncomfortable with the mystery surrounding that, and the explanations I've heard so far for various things (and I've studied and thought about them a lot), while not necessarily wrong, don't seem to me to be specific enough or verifiable enough to make it clear what the connection is. Just giving the traditional Bates exercises doesn't seem to me to be a good compromise anymore.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 12-10-2010
David Wrote:I think things need to be better separated into two categories. Palming and other things I'd like to call maybe "relaxation conditioning exercises" or something like that, while the practice of using the eyes the way people with normal vision do is a different thing but really it's what the conditioning is preparing you for.
This is exactly how I've been combining things lately and it's working really well for me. One thing I've noticed when using the Snellen chart is that when I first look at the chart across the room I feel like I'm looking at a distance that I believe is correct for the actual location of the chart but the letters are blurred and doubled or sort-of clear, depending on my state of mind. Then perhaps I swing or palm and relax a bit and the letters clear up but only to a certain extent and then I lose them again.
These days I have been following my Bates Method practice (swinging/palming) with the Looking for Details approach, and I'm getting good results. And these results always follow the same course:
1) First, I seem to lose the chart to the background as I pick out a group of pixels to look at (central fixation??).
2) Then I feel my eyes attempting to focus like a camera would - I see the Snellen still in the background of the pixels I'm looking at but now it's growing and shrinking and I can practically hear the sound of a camera adjusting it's lens as my eyes automatically try to focus (I know this was spoken of by someone else before, maybe Nancy?).
3) As I look for smaller details (pixels) it seems as if the distance of the chart changes - like before I was looking at a chart 'across the room' and now I'm 'meeting the pixels in the air where they actually are' and I have a moment of losing all sense of the proper placement of things in space.
4) But then the Snellen starts to clear and everything seems to have found it's proper place in space. This feels very similar to the moment that the 3D image of a stereogram appears to me for the first time - it's a relaxation, but a new kind of relaxation.
5) I notice that the peripheral extends outwards as well - I'm more conscious of it.
6) At this point, the rest of the chart comes into better focus and everything looks glassy and several lines on the chart become readable. The clarity stays as long as I can maintain that exact feeling of relaxation which varies.
7) When I do start to feel my vision slipping away then I practice a short swing and can usually recover what I was seeing, at least for a time. My acuity then diminishes again when I look at other things around the room, or change my focus to a new task.
So far, this process has worked really well as long as I'm at home and using the Snellen. But yesterday, with some confidence I tried looking for details while I was in a crowd. It was impossible - there was too much going on around me. For one thing the pixels kept moving away from me - argh! because unlike a Snellen chart, they were actually attached to living moving people and things.
My question is - when Looking for Details, how do I adjust for this movement? The world doesn't stand still and unless I'm standing still and I'm looking at an unmovable object I just can't get this to work - I feel like my eyes don't have enough time to go through all of the above stages before what I'm looking at has changed location.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - hammer - 12-10-2010
Settheleaves, you wrote:
5) I notice that the peripheral extends outwards as well - I'm more conscious of it.
... looking for details while I was in a crowd. It was impossible - there was too much going on around me.
Ok, maybe it is so that you search for a detail, and when temporarily done, you let the peripheral extend outward from the center point to stabilize synchronization even more.
I really think this could be the way of seeing correctly. Thus it starts with a point (or central small area) and extends outward, yes yeehaa I have eventually understod this issue, thanks settheleaves.
Because when you search for a detail lots of information in the visual field is unreliable so you just focus on the point, when you got some focus most of that unreliable information gets reliable again, and this means that the mind can extend the peripheral outward to actually gain from this peripheral information that has turned reliable to use to stabilize the synchronization of the eyes onto the central point, meaning that you also can handle environments like a crowd where lots of things happen.
Now, if you are in that crowd, then you have the peripheral awareness, then you don't have to focus on everything that happens around you,
I don't understand how you then can say that it doesn't work, because it should work if you have extended the peripheral.
This is very important, because if you don't extend the peripheral (while still searching for details) it will not work in a crowd as you say, but obviously you are not using the eyes correctly maybe, like I pointed out.
Dave, thanks for your answer, I understand that you want to simplify how to get into the correct seeing process, that is good, but don't forget the foundation as you say,
that foundation is not so simple unfortunately, that is why Bates wrote so much about it I guess, to be honest Bates method is a total mess for a beginner, and we have to deal with this mess to get it simple, that is why Bates is not accepted, I am sure you are on the right way to succeed in your work to clarify the seeing process in a simple way and go public.
I think your work is really appreciated and you are helping so many people, thanks again, tack igen .
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - seetheleaves - 12-10-2010
hammer Wrote:Because when you search for a detail lots of information in the visual field is unreliable so you just focus on the point, when you got some focus most of that unreliable information gets reliable again, and this means that the mind can extend the peripheral outward to actually gain from this peripheral information that has turned reliable to use to stabilize the synchronization of the eyes onto the central point,
Quote: meaning that you also can handle environments like a crowd where lots of things happen.
It's not that it doesn't work, it's just that it takes me some time to focus on the initial detail. And as long as I can't focus on the detail (or small group of details) then my peripheral vision won't extend outwards. It's an issue of time - I'm watching my group of pixels and then they move because they belong to someone's shirt or whatever. And then I'm like argh! now I have to pick out another group of pixels to search. So I guess I'm still really new at this and therefore...slow? :-\
But I will say this in favour of your peripheral vision theory - I do think you have something there. Because when I was working alot with the 3D images I had one incredibly long clear flash - it lasted for HOURS - it was unbelievable. I had somehow jolted my eyes to work together to see depth and it had translated into a full-on clear flash. I was astounded by how far my peripheral vision had extended. And it wasn't just side-to-side but up-and-down as well. I felt like my field of awareness was broadened to an almost spherical peripheral vision. What I couldn't believe was that I also had perfect central fixation while maintaining this peripheral vision - it was as though the two (central fixation and peripheral vision) were enhancing each other.
Unfortunately, I haven't had that happen again (yet!) but I do keep hoping!
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - David - 12-12-2010
seetheleaves, thanks for sharing what happens during your process.
seetheleaves Wrote:So far, this process has worked really well as long as I'm at home and using the Snellen. But yesterday, with some confidence I tried looking for details while I was in a crowd. It was impossible - there was too much going on around me. For one thing the pixels kept moving away from me - argh! because unlike a Snellen chart, they were actually attached to living moving people and things.
It may be that you'll need more practice with looking only at stationary objects that you have plenty of time to deal with, so that with enough practice you can see things more quickly.
But at some point it doesn't matter whether something is moving or not. It's really a matter of the way you think about seeing. You always have in your mind the goal of finding the smallest pixel that's possible to see. So whether something is blurry or not, or whether you have a moment to study it or not, you always have a chance to at least glance at it with the intention of locating the smallest pixel possible, even if it's just a piece of the blur. It's practicing getting yourself oriented towards looking at things in that way, and only in that way. Even if you're looking at something relatively uniform in color with no details that you can see standing out, as long as you insist on looking for only the smallest pixel, you can just pretend to successfully such a pixel on that object, and move on to another. It doesn't matter if you actually saw it, as long as you consistently think of the smallest pixel, of which there are countless ones right in front you if you only look.
Hmm, I think that's something I need to work into the article. Robert Lichtman of <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.effortlessvision.com">www.effortlessvision.com</a><!-- w --> also has some great insights on this subject partly from some studying of neurology. He pointed out to me a few months ago that to become myopic you just have to ignore high resolution visual info, whereas one way to stimulate the dormant high resolution fields in the brain is to limit your attention to the smallest possible area. So I gather that's why clear vision isn't always instant, especially at first, even though Bates had his reasons for suggesting that it was. It takes a little time for you to use your brain right again and the right parts to remain activated.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Deliverance - 12-12-2010
My experience so far with the method:
Well, I have been practicing the method maybe for a month now, some days I am lazy and do nothing and other I work hard up to 2 hours every day looking for details on the chart.
I've noticed that while practicing this on the chart, I feel great tension in and around my eyes, tired eyes, later maybe a hot feeling, so I have to palm every few minutes, after some time practicing, the chart sometimes become perfectly distinguishable, I'm looking for details at a short distance to see better the small pieces of details, also after a long-session on the chart, everything seems to be more focused things slightly clearly. It's exciting.
as I can practice with an object that if I can not see the small details? example in a tree how I can 'see' the smallest details?(or perceive).
I find it easy with the chart until I gain more experience.
I want to share with you that yesterday I had my first long-lasting clear flash after practicing this.
This happened in my left eye only, this was not a great flash but maybe 20/70, I can blink and this would not goes away, esto durÃ³ varias horas. I could see everything in the computer screen more focused and clearly at a normal distance. The improvement was not permanent but I can noticed a slightly improvement in clarity in that eye.
IT's important to try to stay relaxed all day long to sucess.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Deliverance - 12-13-2010
I don't want to continue doing things bad, so it's important to clear some things, I am still a mess with this.
Well, the method could be summarized as the follow:
-Face the chart/object.
-Start to think about it as scattered details, there is no such thing as blur.
-Perceive small details in and around the letter/object.
-Keep imagining/perceiving small dots/points of details.
-Look at a small detail (?). Keep perceiving small and imagining even small pieces (?).
while more are scattered the details, the better?
There is the mess, you first said that you should look at a single small detail and focus on it, but later you said that you haven't to focus on no particular detail. Just perceive as everything is made of pure details. Please correct me.
Re: notes on looking at details and changing - Nancy - 12-14-2010
I'm finding as I get myself out of the way, stopping doing what my first instinct is to see better, I am seeing more clearly. My brain and eyes know what to do without my "help"! From my blog last night:
Quote:[Riding in the van], I was aware that in the not too distant past this kind of scene would have given me an instant headache and possibly even nausea, and I marveled at how relaxed I felt. I was also surprised I didnât have any double vision, which is common for me when the scene is moving rapidly like this and I often donât have enough time to get a steady focus. A few times I could feel the nausea or headache starting, especially going around sharp curves, and I renewed my commitment to look for details, and the feeling subsided!I'm reminded of the Alexander Technique training steps of progress. First is Awareness, noticing your bad habit. Say I'm jutting my neck forward and tensing it, reaching for that clear image, trying to see. The second step is Inhibition, to stop doing that bad habit every time I catch myself. I simply need to stop jutting my neck forward. The third and final step, which only works when placed on the foundation of the other 2, is Direction, directing your body to perform a more useful habit. I'm finding with looking for details that I'm getting a lot of good results just with the first 2 steps here, noting I'm straining somehow and stopping that, letting my vision do its natural thing without my interference.