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+--- Thread: Shifting in a Triangle (/showthread.php?tid=1981)
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - David - 12-14-2011
Sypheren Wrote:I find it impossible to move to each part of the triangle without making a mental (for the lack of a better word) 'affirmation', not a note, or a number, but kind of... registering that I've done that, and i know its the wrong thing to be doing, but I cant figure out how to NOT do it, and its become increasingly frustrating... Does that make sense?
Also, I have a hard time shifting directly down. Its almost like I have to force my eyes downward.
Paying attention to each change in the point of your attention is the idea. But if you have inner dialogue affirming each movement, it might help to do the breathing first and quiet down. And just by repetition your mind will tire of affirming it and just let it happen.
Do you have trouble moving your eyes down if you aren't doing this exercise, or if you aren't looking at anything? If not, you're tensing up your eyes because at some level you believe you have to tense up your eyes in order to do this.
Edit: Fixed the last paragraph, said the opposite of what I meant.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - David - 12-14-2011
And just a general comment. The triangle is a way to get you to keep moving your eyes from point to point. When you can see more clearly, whether it's from improved vision or just because you're looking at something up close, the thing to practice instead is to make sure to keep shifting your gaze ever so slightly so that your eyes move slightly and you get a whole new picture for the retina. Or in other words, if your center of vision changes, each ray of light ends up falling on a different cell of your retina. It might not seem like the image is changing like that, because your visual system is set up so that the image appears constant, but really what's happening is a series of flashes, much like a video camera records in so many frames per second. It's another flash of visual data each time your eyes move. You can't necessarily tell your eyes are moving, so that's why you have to pay attention to your attention. Your attention drives your eyes, so that's how you make sure to keep your eyes moving. You just have to trust that your eyes moved when you looked at another nearby point, because they did, even if you didn't feel it or "see" the movement.
And with the video camera analogy, it might be worth noting that the better your vision is (functionally speaking), the higher your frames per second. I remember noticing flickering of the computer screen and other lights when my vision started improving, because my frames per second was significantly higher than the flicker.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - Nancy - 12-15-2011
About moving the head and moving the eyes, Carina Goodrich (daughter of Janet) says using the "magic nose-pencil" which you move to point at what you're looking at, even slightly from one side of a letter on the eye chart to the other, causes you to move your head. Tom Quackenbush also talked about the nose-pencil, but I like Carina's presentation better. Moving your head ever so slightly as you look from one place to another, your vision shifting with your attention, frees up your eyes to make the tiny saccadic movements over which you have no conscious control.
This made so much sense to me! I'm aware of my gaze moving with my attention from one letter to another, say, but had no clue how to let the saccadic motion of truly healthy vision emerge. I thought it would just get faster and more precise as I kept practicing the grosser movements over which I do have control (by moving my attention), and I guess it's kind of like that after all. My eyes and brain know what they're doing!
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - blwegrzyn - 12-16-2011
So I have been reading this post and trying to apply anything that was useful for the other people and this is what i noticed. I did the triangle exercise with eye chart at around 14feet for 1 min after that i moved my attention to the power outlet at around 28 feet for 30 sec and then i moved my attention to the lamp at 2 feet away for 30sec and I was repeating above for 10 min. I noticed that during this whole procedure my eye balls started to feel like they were getting bigger and like they would pop out. I also felt that everything I would feel my eye balls getting bigger or whatever that feels was the vision would get clearer. I don't consider this a clear flash but at least something is happening? I also did palming after that for 3 min and i noticed that i could not rest my eyes to get rid of that weird feeling of my eyes getting bigger or telling me that they were there growing or something. Weird!!! But what ever it is when i feel it like that i see better? Any one experienced anything like that?
My theory is: due to strain our eyes reshaped and impacted our vision, so whenever we relax or get back to the original state (good vision) we will feel the eyes reshaping back?
what do you think?
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - hammer - 12-16-2011
Nancy Wrote:... Moving your head ever so slightly as you look from one place to another, your vision shifting with your attention, frees up your eyes to make the tiny saccadic movements over which you have no conscious control.
Nancy,
I think you are right there.
I some time ago watch this video (I actually listen to all his videos) and when I did watch that video I noticed that I did not move my head (and eyes) at all compared to what this man (Peter) in the video did. Then I realized also that moving your head actually is an easy way to enable the saccadic eye movements.
Try to do the same test yourself, look at his eyes in this video and notice that he is really moving his head, blinking and really being present also when he speaks. Don't listen to what he say on the other hand
, but in fact that he is almost always right in all his forecasts (quite amazing), however I think he "always" is right because his mind is tranquil. It is quite interesting to just notice the behaviour when the mind is tranquil.<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.europac.net/media/video_blog">http://www.europac.net/media/video_blog</a><!-- m -->
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - minjja - 12-17-2011
blwegrzyn Wrote:So I have been reading this post and trying to apply anything that was useful for the other people and this is what i noticed. I did the triangle exercise with eye chart at around 14feet for 1 min after that i moved my attention to the power outlet at around 28 feet for 30 sec and then i moved my attention to the lamp at 2 feet away for 30sec and I was repeating above for 10 min. I noticed that during this whole procedure my eye balls started to feel like they were getting bigger and like they would pop out. I also felt that everything I would feel my eye balls getting bigger or whatever that feels was the vision would get clearer. I don't consider this a clear flash but at least something is happening? I also did palming after that for 3 min and i noticed that i could not rest my eyes to get rid of that weird feeling of my eyes getting bigger or telling me that they were there growing or something. Weird!!! But what ever it is when i feel it like that i see better? Any one experienced anything like that?
My theory is: due to strain our eyes reshaped and impacted our vision, so whenever we relax or get back to the original state (good vision) we will feel the eyes reshaping back?
what do you think?
Yes, I also sometimes feel that my eyes are getting bigger especially when I´m palming.
Can I ask something? I´m not sure about shifting in a triangle. Should I make 3 or 4 points to complete the triangle? If 4 we would always end at the same point right?? I dont know
And it can be also tricky to shift in a triangle because things arent always in this shape.Some picture of how to exactly shifting would really help me.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - Nini - 12-17-2011
When I am working with the interactive eye chart ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html">http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/oph/ped/IVAC/IVAC.html</a><!-- m --> ) quite often, just before the letters clear up, it feels as if the chart was approaching and the letters would become larger; I really see the chart moving towards me and becoming larger, and then I know, letters will become much clearer now...
Shifting I practice with this: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vision-training.com/Download/Eyecharts/Eyechart%20Black%20on%20White.pdf">http://www.vision-training.com/Download ... 0White.pdf</a><!-- m --> eyechart.
As for the 'shape' of the shifts, I found out, that it is easier for me to shift only within the parts of a single letter in the bigger rows, otherwise the shifts become too large.
When I move down, I take 2 letters in the upper row and 1 letter beneath. Then I include 1 more letter in the lower row to make 4, then I leave one letter in the upper row and I'm back to a triangle. then I leave the other letter in the upper row and instead include 1 letter in the row under the 2 letters and so on...
When I come down to the smallest letters, I stay in the row and move only between the letters horizontally, because the row avove is so much further away than the letters in the row, which makes the shifts very unequal.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - hammer - 12-17-2011
I was swimming today and when I was swimming I thought that there is an analogy to eyesight here because both swimming and eyesight is about coordination. The faster you swim the easier it becomes to swim they say, at least a friend of mine who was actually almost an elite swimmer explained this to me, because the faster you swim the higher above the water surface you swim, but if you lose speed you sink and it becomes hard to keep up swimming when you sink lower into the water.
The vision also seems to be instantaneous and the more quickly you can move the eyes the better vision you get, when you lose attention speed it becomes harder to keep up the effortless seeing. You cannot swim fast either if you are not relaxed, so it is exactly the same principles in both swimming and vision. That is rather interesting, because it makes it possible to understand the ground vision principles just by understanding how it is possible to swim fast with as little effort as possible.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - David - 12-17-2011
minjja Wrote:blwegrzyn Wrote:So I have been reading this post and trying to apply anything that was useful for the other people and this is what i noticed. I did the triangle exercise with eye chart at around 14feet for 1 min after that i moved my attention to the power outlet at around 28 feet for 30 sec and then i moved my attention to the lamp at 2 feet away for 30sec and I was repeating above for 10 min. I noticed that during this whole procedure my eye balls started to feel like they were getting bigger and like they would pop out. I also felt that everything I would feel my eye balls getting bigger or whatever that feels was the vision would get clearer. I don't consider this a clear flash but at least something is happening? I also did palming after that for 3 min and i noticed that i could not rest my eyes to get rid of that weird feeling of my eyes getting bigger or telling me that they were there growing or something. Weird!!! But what ever it is when i feel it like that i see better? Any one experienced anything like that?
My theory is: due to strain our eyes reshaped and impacted our vision, so whenever we relax or get back to the original state (good vision) we will feel the eyes reshaping back?
what do you think?
Yes, I also sometimes feel that my eyes are getting bigger especially when I´m palming.
Can I ask something? I´m not sure about shifting in a triangle. Should I make 3 or 4 points to complete the triangle? If 4 we would always end at the same point right?? I dont know
Some picture of how to exactly shifting would really help me.
Tell you what, post a link to a picture and I'll draw some things on it.
Edit: Just to clarify I mean a picture of some random scene, to give an idea of how to do this with anything.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - blwegrzyn - 12-17-2011
I am not sure what minjja is talking about but this is how i see it.
I numbered all the points in the order i look at them.
Left - 3 points, Right - 4 points
![[Image: triangle.png]](http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/6207/triangle.png)
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - David - 12-17-2011
blwegrzyn Wrote:I am not sure what minjja is talking about but this is how i see it.
I numbered all the points in the order i look at them.
Left - 3 points, Right - 4 points
That looks fine. And the next step would be to look at more details of the E each time. It depends on how well you can see it. Even if it's blurry, as long as you can distinguish that something is there, you can look at different parts of it. First you might try only looking at the letter and then a bit to the side of it at a spot that isn't as black as the center of the blurred letter. But if there's blur, then there are lighter and darker areas. You can notice that the letter isn't just a round dot of blur, so you can look at what makes it not a round dot, such the top of the letter that looks like it might be sticking out. And then once you've looked around at those spots for a moment and you aren't noticing anything new, leave it and go to the next letter.
So the triangle isn't really important. It's just an illustration that you should look around at things, at the context, and stop at details and examine the parts of the detail or its immediate surroundings more carefully. People with normal vision constantly examine things, but in between examining things they look around in order to be aware of the wider surroundings. So looking closer at details isn't something that you can't do while you're driving or can't do in other busy tasks. You're just not used to it and you're afraid that you'll miss something if you look at any one thing too closely, but of course by not really looking at anything you miss everything! It's hilarious. It's like someone trying to shove a whole plateful of food in his mouth at once but not getting anywhere because the plate won't fit in his mouth. To a certain extent people learn the futility of trying to see everything at once, so they look around at different objects or parts of objects, but they don't commit to taking the concept all the way to fruition by examining the details of the smallest details. You aren't used to thinking of things as made up of such small parts, so it takes practice to start perceiving things that way and get in the habit of examining something or another all the time.
So I'm trying to get people to really start to look at what they can already see, instead of just giving up any interest as soon as an object is blurry. Anything smaller than a certain size, people with bad vision want to just stare at. People with normal vision, when they can't see something, look around for other details. And most of those details they don't see right away. They have to look around to see what comes up.
I think the visual system requires a certain amount of data in order for it to be able to orient and focus correctly. And I think the only way it can get enough data to orient itself is if there is a fast enough stream of data. And I think a new set of data for that data stream is created each time the eyes make a tiny shift. That last part might be known and verified somewhere online, but I admit that's a lot of maybes.
When you're working on a complex math problem, writing it out with a pen in your hand, and you learn to do it more quickly, you don't learn to do it more quickly by trying to move your hand faster. You learn to get completely involved in the problem and move your mind faster. Your hand is directed by your mind. If you were to try to just move your hand around in some kind of pattern, or random directions, just for the sake of moving it more quickly, you would end up with a mess of squiggles on the page that doesn't do anything towards your understanding the math problem.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - minjja - 12-18-2011
blwegrzyn Wrote:I am not sure what minjja is talking about but this is how i see it.
I numbered all the points in the order i look at them.
Left - 3 points, Right - 4 points
No I wasnt talking about this
4 points - 1, 2, 3 are right but the 4th point would be situated back on the 1st point. So we´d look at the point twice. Because this is what I call a triangle....like to close it ;D Maybe I just think about it a lot.
David Wrote:Tell you what, post a link to a picture and I'll draw some things on it.
Edit: Just to clarify I mean a picture of some random scene, to give an idea of how to do this with anything.
![[Image: img2162tokyoyoyogikoeni.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/407/img2162tokyoyoyogikoeni.jpg/)
What about this one?
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - Nini - 12-18-2011
I think, this is a good example for an explanation.
(Just one thing 'off-topic':
The guy on the right in front seems to copy a picture of the lake instead of painting according to the nature he sees directly. Maybe he is too short sighted to see the lake and trees in nature
;D ?)
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - Nancy - 12-18-2011
David, thanks. I love the plate full of food analogy. I think I'm at the point now where I fully understand the way I have to use my eyes, but I keep falling back into wrong habits like trying to see a big area all at once, or continuing to try (strain!) to see something that's blurry without looking around. This behavior is decreasing, but I still catch myself at it several times a day, so I just keep practicing looking in a healthy relaxed curious way.
Also, thanks for the simple wisdom several days back here that each of the multiple images is "the right one" -- I'm still tying o merge them or looking at the fainter ones with annoyance, so clearly(!) not accepting them without strain! I was away and didn't have a chance to comment right away but that was very helpful to me.
Re: Shifting in a Triangle - arocarty - 12-20-2011
David Wrote:I think the visual system requires a certain amount of data in order for it to be able to orient and focus correctly. And I think the only way it can get enough data to orient itself is if there is a fast enough stream of data. And I think a new set of data for that data stream is created each time the eyes make a tiny shift. That last part might be known and verified somewhere online, but I admit that's a lot of maybes.
It may not be that the data set is always so new; with a very tiny shift it would be almost identical, but that it is then processed and transmitted in turn by different photocells. So, even though there's sometimes an almost identical image on the retina, the refreshment requirement is being fulfilled because different cells are taking turns processing the input with each movement.
That being said, however, the rods in the periphery require a somewhat larger shift to be refreshed, which is why the peripheral can fade out some time before the central cones, which are structurally closer together. So what satisfies central vision may not always satisfy the peripheral (and cause some form of 'tunnel vision').
How fast is fast enough? Like many other aspects of the visual system, there's probably a lot of inter-individual variation. We don't have direct control over our involuntary fixation movements (MIcro-saccades, tremor, and drift). We do have control over voluntary saccades, but even with those, we don't want to compromise too much detail for speed. Bates observed that trying to shift more than a few times a second would begin to cause strain. So in terms of our voluntary movements, it can be counterproductive if we try to shift too fast.