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+--- Thread: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal (/showthread.php?tid=2217)
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - jimboaxeman - 06-07-2013
I think this is where I am too. I need to fully grasp the mental side of vision as there are times I stumble upon the right thought and everything clears, but identifying that mindset seems to be a devil of a job! I also think that you are spot on in saying that our generation have trouble understanding what Dr Bates wrote and instead we create more strain from our interpretation. I too have sometimes noticed that doing the wrong things brings about clarity of vision. I really do believe it is down to how we mentally respond to what we are doing. It is possible to stare but not do so mentally, which means you can be mentally relaxed whilst you seem to be staring. Although what is really happening are those tiny imperceptible eye movements which work automatically when the mind is relaxed. You can be under pressure and still see clearly if you are able to respond in the right way mentally. I have experienced this. I also find close work beneficial if my mental state is relaxed. There are a lot of so called Bates Teachers who say that close work, such as reading small print, is bad for your eyes. After re-reading PEWG I do not find quite the same opinion. In fact, straining to see up close can actually benefit myopia. But more importantly, in my own experience, if I am relaxed with the idea of reading small print (and because of erroneous teachings I have often not been relaxed with reading small print or reading up close) I find that when I look in the distance, my distance vision is better. I just simply enjoy being able to see clearly up close and not associate eye strain with it. Sometimes it helps to think about everything else around and in the distance as being clear. But if I am stressed about close reading "because it is bad for my eyes" then I find indeed that it is and my distance vision is far worse. But it is actually the mental response to the activity which causes the strain.
I still don't really know, or could define what a "wrong" thought is, yet I am still obviously practising this thinking most of the time!
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 10-17-2013
Wow, its been a year since I started. Its hard to believe that I have done something for so long consistently. Thinking and writing my thoughts about vision has become automatic. I stumble into clear vision very often and my logic and understanding of the subject gets better and better. The less I force it the better I do and my reasons for "straining' or putting myself in this state of mind become more clear as time goes on. Its amazing what you find you actually believe about vision when you analyze your thinking about it. perhaps ironically, the less I obsess over my vision the better I do. Its funny how off I was about the bates method at the start- I was focusing on all the wrong things and doing exactly the opposite of what was advised. Bates method is not about doing things to improve your vision, its about stopping the things you are doing for vision.
I have a bunch of notes to go through. I'll write them all down and write some more. I know that someday soon I will succeed, but patience is needed- otherwise I will try to force myself to get somewhere I got to without any force at all.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - jimboaxeman - 10-25-2013
100% agree with you. The less I think about my vision, the better it is. Sometimes I wonder how eye exercises fit in with this, but yet if it wasn't for Bates a Method, my vision would not have improved.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 10-25-2013
Indeed. There seems to be a paradoxical element to the bates method at first glance and even in the deeper parts of it. There seems to be so many layers to uncover. Recently I have been thinking about how when I have a clear flash, I default to the previous behavior because I find it hard to accept that my vision improved without me forcing it. To strain is merely an impulse that has become a habit, it along with all your other thoughts and emotions will pass- if you let them. Even if they hurt or scare you at first- it needs to happen. We give more power to these emotions and impulses by trying to force them away or change them/impose what we think is right on them- and as a result they become worse.
The biggest things that will stall progress with the method is this: What you think you know about vision. Clearly, if you aren't 20/20 or better regularly you have no idea what you are talking about. By paying attention to your perceptions about the problem rather than what you think you know, you can gain new insight through experience. I think the mental obsession of having to get things perfectly or trying to force an idea is a big part of strain for myopes- but of course, I could be wrong: as my understanding is incomplete.
This helps me not repeat myself, something I did often in the past when taking down my notes and thoughts about vision and other things. This is what I have been thinking about currently- and I think it is applicable to all types of change, not just the vision.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 10-25-2013
Its kind of amazing what the human vision can do. Today out of curiosity I got out my glasses to see what wearing them would be like again for around 5 minutes (its been over two years since I took them off and a little over year that I have been studying natural vision). It left a strong impression on me- Its almost as if I can see far better but it feels shallow, like a lie. My mind is still panicking despite the perfect image in front of me. Another thing I noticed is that having perfect vision normally or through temporary improvement is completely different that the perfect vision provided by glasses. I usually don't get clear flashes at 20/15 like my glasses provide me- but I often get around the point where I can read street sign pretty far away that I can't normally see. Another interesting thing is that it felt wrong for there to be no variability at all with the vision- it all being static and in focus over such a wide area is jarring
The last thing was I realized just how much worse my glasses make me look, they don't go well with broader facial features and it looks really silly. How the hell can people even myself tolerate this for so long? are we that afraid of change?
Yeesh, I still have the jitters.
You know whats worse that the imperfect eyesight? the pain, soreness as diminishing of ability to think without pain. That's the part that gets me the most.. Its depressing that so few people in the world have the expertise to help, and even then it takes a long time for recovery. There has to be better way of doing this, when I recover I am going to devote tons of energy into writing and experimenting all I can- I definitely have had plenty of insights over the last year and I have come a long way. I hope that we can get to the point of critical mass and have enough people who know what they are talking about in this community to make a difference- this is my sincere wish. Having to suffer this way wants me to do my best to make sure others don't have to go through all this suffering.
I am sure of one thing, its time for me to go for tackling this seriously again- now that I have come this far there's no way I can ever go back.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - ted - 10-25-2013
Do you feel like your at the point where you've read enough theory and anecdotes that it's more a matter doing it, keeping up this.....constant refreshing/continual letting go/out with the old, in with the new type thing? It's really difficult to accurately describe what's going on here, and I can't say much as I am still myopic, but just the experiences I've been having the past month or two...it seems like there are layers upon layers of epiphanies. Because bad vision is something that is kept continually going by some kind of stressful reaction or something, that means each moment it comes up is another chance to.....do I dunno. To do whatever it is that would promote good vision. Relaxing, letting the thought go, letting the body stress go, allowing yourself to forget, to not repeat something, to not hold onto something either mentally or physically (is there really even a clear distinction between mind and body?).
Everyone is different, but if we can figure out how those patients of Bates were cured so quickly, what was actually going on there, what did they have or do that others didn't, then we can get at this better. I started reading William McCracken's book Normal Sight Without Glasses. He's got a slightly different way of describing Bates fundamentals, or how cures happen at a fundamental level, which may help you look at it from another perspective.
One thing I keep hearing from people is that it's good to have multiple practices/techniques that you can switch back and forth to whenever one doesn't work or what not. I'm theorizing that at a fundamental level myopes have a problem holding on too long to something, whether that be a thought or a widened attention, and that they are afraid to change, to let the thought go by moving on to something else. Sort of like how the way to get a song out of your head is by getting something else stuck in your head. The change comes from moving on, instead of just trying to stop the thought.
I also am theorizing that movement is kind of a fundamental principle in all things. Like......water is healthier and cleaner if it is moving, rather than stagnate. People are also healthier when they are active rather than stagnate, etc. But there's another apparent contradiction there and people might misread it and think they should be moving all the time, and forcing their eyes around all the time. I think that confusion kind of stems from our tendency to want to make things into absolutes, to group them, to make them easier to understand. But you gotta keep in mind that the world is pretty darned analog and an absolute like "relaxation is good" can just be so misinterpreted that it's ridiculous. But, words are pretty dang good at communicating ideas too, so you just gotta do the best you can to explain things.
The last thing I want to say is that I think it should be kind of lighthearted and fun. I tend to get a little too serious about it all, and I doubt that's helpful. There's some quote that says "If you aren't having fun, your doing it wrong." So best of luck, it seems like your doing good.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - jimboaxeman - 10-27-2013
Ted and Tsukiomi, you are both reading my thoughts. when you start Bates Method it all seems very simple and black and white, but as vision improves the more subtle your understanding needs to be. You get to a point where you feel you have to throw out the practices. But, it is very important to remember the main principle of letting go. I cannot even put it into words myself. We need to become less dogmatic but hold on to the essence of the teaching. I think this is a natural new level we must move into if we have been practising the Bates Method for a long time.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 10-28-2013
Its definitely true that as you learn more (or un-learn dependent on the way you look at it) the more subtle things become and the more inadequate/confusing words become in relation to it. Also, probably the most interesting things about the bates method is that by doubting my previous assumptions and looking at it from a different angle- and getting used to this phenomena I have many "realizations" per week compared to before where it felt like I was lying to myself and parroting. It took many many many mistakes to gain some understanding of this. I think my new notes are great, but they aren't coherent enough to share just quite yet. What I can be certain of by comparison to 20/15 from glasses- my temporary improvements in vision (I know why bates used the words "clear flash now") that my clear flashes are of a higher visual quality and during those moment i feel less constrained and more "free."
I think one of the things that was hard and still is difficult on the subconscious level is admitting that I think and act in a strained manner- and that its entirely my fault. Its not some sort of condition that you have- but rather one you create. Therefore, it cannot be removed by another effort but rather the removal of an action. One thing I noticed today, or rather remembered was just how monumentally stubborn I am when I think I am right. I try to force it on my reality even if I am wrong and my mind is hurting to give me signals that I am not thinking right.
The best things I take from the bates method tend to some of the articles on the basic theory, about the mindset,etc. Rather than on exercises. Although I understand the purpose of those as well- I am not at the point where I could do them without making the mistake of straining (I think this above all else is the reason why bates never caught on, because people don't even understand the basics and therefore won't be able to cure themselves). What I am doing is aiming to adopt a new mindset- a new way of thinking. Its quite a task to convince yourself that your way of thinking has been harmful, especially since we are wired to believe our own BS. The biggest obstacle to learning is what you think you know about it.
Drop me a pm if yall want to discuss some of the finer points- I am approaching this from a basics of the basics meta-level type of way and it has brought me the most success.
Re: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 11-20-2013
The psychological side: 1
For the most part, its this that I think about when dealing with vision in general these days as my discoveries in this field tend to yield stronger results and they help me understand why the problem exists in the first place.
Usually, several times per month I can assign a new meaning or vision related thing to what strain is. To me, I think of strain now- as the synonym occurs to me as... Distress. I'll never forget the level of distress I was feeling during the weeks where I descended into myopia. I felt so lost and confused, I started feeling large bouts of pain in my eyes. I didn't know what to do with all these feelings that occurred, so I fought them- with everything I had. I did all sorts of weird things to my eyes, I tried to tense them up and force the pain away but that only made things worse. The one habit that I formed at that point that remains today is that when I want something accomplished mentally or physically, instead of going through the process or details, I'll mentally use force or more mental energy to try and force the change or event to occur.
Even though I cannot be certain of what exactly caused the eye twitching and issues to come forth in the first place, I do remember vividly the feelings I felt while reacting to them- they are the same feelings I have now related to vision. It makes me think, is the way we react to our vision part or most of the problem? First we force it and then we panic.. Its no wonder things stay the same.
A nervous energy consistently is present in my mind at all times, always distressed to one degree or another- and uncertainty becomes a plague.
Relax? How do I do that? trying to force myself to get to the answer all this time did not help one bit. Slowing down and processing things helped a bit more- but I still can't be certain as to what is the cause of all this pain. Supposedly its effort to see and I have found evidence of this on many occasions- but I also know that the problem comes from bad habits of thought that tear the mind apart.
What thoughts bring such distress and strain to the mind? How can I change the way I react to these thoughts?
How do you process distress? I think the fundamental way we react to it (dr.bates referred to the correct way of responding to it as habit of mind as: Composure) Is the cause for making myopia a permanent habit, rather than a passing condition due to stress.
RE: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 12-25-2013
Hello again everyone, glad to see that the forum is more active as of late. Wanted to pop in with a quick status report.
Recently there was a period of several days where during the day and evening the mental strain (pain,fear,etc) subsided. I felt so optimistic and the pain and obstacles I felt in my mind weren't there or were vague in comparison. When I would look up my vision would be better than usual or almost to better than perfect vision. I was shocked at how in the mental state that I was in, I didn't need to do anything additional to keep that improved vision. Several times I would look up completely dumbfounded at the fact that my vision was incredibly sharp. It was surprising how far I could see, especially since I didn't feel pain getting in the way..
I know this sounds rambly, but I am testing things to be certain. I know I am near the point where I have the concepts understood well enough that I can get consistent results. When I am at that point I will write a blog post on the material.
What I have found is, your state of mind above all else is the determining factor on how strained, how much pain you produce in your mind or how out of place you feel in your own head. My work will be figuring out how to voluntarily produce these states of mind and their accompanying side effects (on the negative end mental and physical pain, difficulty imagining , lack of confidence. On the positive end, absence of all of these or increase optimism, mental acuity and visual acuity)
I'll experiment with the negative to understand what strain is. Then Ill experiment with the other to learn how to relieve it. I can finally say that I have something concrete that I can practice, that I have some understanding of. Most of the difficulty with bates method for people is we deal in abstracts too much, which can confuse and strain the mind- struggling to force out an understanding that we cannot grasp.
It is the mind that is myopic, and creates myopia. Of this I am completely certain. And I am starting to understand why this happens, and how. I have so many blunders, pains and temporary successes through trial and error- that my experience is finally paying off at a level where I can be confident that the end is in sight.
RE: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 04-26-2014
Hello again, its funny how each time I post here I feel like a different person. I wore my glasses for about 15 minutes today to compare the difference, the contrast was rather shocking. What I have realized is that I have been developing the theory of vision improvement for over a year now, and although it is more accurate than ever- Philosophy is only useful to a certain degree, when it prevents you from positive actions it is actually a hindrance.
I have decided to compile my notes in the following way
-List out things that definitely do not work to improve vision
-List out the frame of minds that have promoted vision improvements
-Write out what I think would be a good solution
then, I am going to spend 3 weeks aiming to apply one of David methods principles (particularly the taking on only so much vision wise) in addition to not interfering with the visual process (which seems to rest me). By making these habits and focusing all my attention on them, rather than trying to go for a perfect understanding and cure all at once- I hope to get the permanent results that have eluded me all this time.
If all else fails, I am going to figure out what exactly lowers the vision (what behaviors, thoughts, states,etc) and see if I can stop those things in Endeavor to find a cure.
Only after doing all those things and by the end of 2015 if I haven't found the cure yet- I will stop this. This is the most practical thing I can think of- its time to stop philosophizing in the clouds and get some results.
RE: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - jimboaxeman - 05-05-2014
Hi Tsukiomi,
I completely agree with you about the mind being myopic. I have not posted for a long time and the reason being is that although I am still progressing on this vision journey, there would not be anything I can say which would be helpful at the moment. You hit the nail on the head when you said that Bates Method deals with too many abstracts. What one person understands by mental strain is different to another person's understanding of the term. If you tell two different people they need to move their eyes more, they will both interpret and execute that differently. These are subjective interpretations of what was intended to be abstract ideas. We just simply do not know what Dr Bates meant half of the time. What is "the thought which relaxes"? - is it a thought which was previously strained? Or is it a thought which causes the mind to relax? The place I am at now is mainly being aware of how I am thinking about my vision. I rarely attempt to execute the good vision habits. This is because the thought of having to do them causes strain! Sometimes I have the unction to do them and then for a short while they work very well - until I get bored or start expecting results. I know that whenever a way of thinking produces a clear flash, my eyes are automatically doing everything correctly at that moment anyway. I have not had any really bad vision lately, and in fact I have been having a lot more good vision, including good 3D vision, which previously was quite rare. I have many more thoughts on the subject but won't share them now as incomplete theory is more dangerous than no theory. You said that you'd give it until 2015 and then stop. Not sure what you mean, but I do believe the cure really is in the "giving up". If we could decide that we are content to view the world with blurry sight yet without the aid of corrective lenses, and just accept this is the way we see and it really does not matter in the grand scheme of things, I think in that place we will find the permanent cure.[/i]
RE: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - Tsukiomi - 05-06-2014
Recently, I have become acutely aware of the emotional nature of the problem. It is so intimately connected to my sense of self, and the fear that as struck into me in the shock when I started losing my vision- doing anything I could to try to force it back. I think its learning to overcome/tolerate, but not removing those emotions that will bring us one step closer. Its a painful process at times, but as I improve other aspects of my life- is see this more and more in my vision.
This is truly the most counter-intuitive problem I have ever encountered- so many false conclusions I have made over the last two years. Its akin to a gradual lessening of error.
RE: Tsukiomi's Vision Journal - chriskim193 - 05-06-2014
(05-06-2014, 04:27 AM)Tsukiomi Wrote: Recently, I have become acutely aware of the emotional nature of the problem. It is so intimately connected to my sense of self, and the fear that as struck into me in the shock when I started losing my vision- doing anything I could to try to force it back. I think its learning to overcome/tolerate, but not removing those emotions that will bring us one step closer. Its a painful process at times, but as I improve other aspects of my life- is see this more and more in my vision.
This is truly the most counter-intuitive problem I have ever encountered- so many false conclusions I have made over the last two years. Its akin to a gradual lessening of error.
^^ thats so ture, i dont know how many wrong conclusions i made this month alone, and every time one of conclusions proves to be false, the frustration i have to face lol, i think what helps me is just grab a set of instructions and trying it out while observing it without making any conclusions. yea life gets in the way esp to young people (im 20 super busy at school) school, social life, work, these thing can be a really big distraction from vision improvement, and not just vision improvement but also as something more deeper like getting to know one self and etc. but one thing for sure is, it teaches us something, gets us to think, how this thing all manifested and about our lifestyle we been living, our emotional, mental state, lol anyway keep it up i can relate very much to you