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+--- Thread: being less (/showthread.php?tid=687)
Re: being less - otis - 02-18-2008
Dear Urban,
Subject: Total agreement.
Quote:I think that David's way of describing things hits the nail right on the head.
It is extremely difficult to manifest changes in our habits.
While we may disagree on some details, we must agree that these preventive
methods are an "intrusion" in that person's life. The ARE intended
for his own benifit -- but he must "see" it that way.
I know of people who cleared their Snellen (by use of BOTH methods), and they
did it by avoiding the minus -- and taking PERSONAL responsiblity to
look at their Snellen, and confirm the "clearing" effect of these
methods.
But, whether pure-Bates, or modified methods, we know that success will depend
on the person's interest, motivation and persistence.
These methods are low-cost or no-cost -- but they are designed to EMPOWER the
person to get "control" of his vision.
Just my opinion,
Otis
Re: being less - otto - 02-20-2008
While working with you eyes, rather than allowing oneself to be compulsively analytical or worrisome, there is a special attitude that can be taken. This attitude can be adopted after increasing awareness by following one's breath and finding a relaxed state. ...Some believe, and I tend to agree, that accommodation is a learned skill that, usually, we figure out in infancy through trial and error and exploration. We are able to do this because we have not developed internal chatter(the unfortunate side effect of being verbal) and so we remain completely sensitive. I contend that all the Bates techniques are intended to be explorations conducted with maximum sensitivity. By practicing Bates over time we are feeding ourselves data about our vision until our mind and eyes know how to sustain better vision.
Yes, whether or not we are conscious of it, explorations made with sensitivity and a quiet mind lead to something I call LEARNING, as in learning to accommodate. So, the helpful attitude is an observant attitude. You are a scientist making observations as to what works and what doesn't. Even if you only observe that "I am straining and I see the illusion of high blurriness", if that is observed carefully, you will learn from that and the accumulation of these learning experiences will be beneficial to your eyes. So, relax and relax deeply. Don't worry about if your sight is crisper than usual just be very observant and know that learning to see is a process of accumulating data about your mind in relation to your vision. 8) It's a pretty hands off process. Learning does not require much thinking. In fact, it really gets in the way.
Re: being less - sorrisiblue - 02-21-2008
David's post makes a lot of sense to me. In my own experience, I too have found that Bates's methods are for relaxing, not 'exercizes'. My moments of best eyesight are when I just let things be the way they are, am more accepting, am not in a rush, and am aware of this in some calm way.
I have looked up more information on meditation and mindfulness, I thought some others browsing these forums might find information on the following sites useful for learning to let go and just be:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dharma.ncf.ca/">http://dharma.ncf.ca/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://mindfulnessclasses.com/">http://mindfulnessclasses.com/</a><!-- m -->
I read through the first mindfulness exercize on the second website (in the kindergarten section). Practicing just this for a few minutes was really an experience. Won't write too much, I'm sure everyone experiences something different!
Re: being less - tom - 02-21-2008
Thanks for sharing!
David's post makes a lot of sense to me too. I really believe that letting go is the key to improvement - not only for eyesight, but health in general.
I've been practicing relaxation techniques and breathing for the past few weeks and it has been a great experience so far. As a result I'm able to fall asleep at night within a few minutes and I dream a lot more. Earlier it always took me a few hours to fall asleep and I hardly ever had a dream.
But sleeping is not the only thing that improved. Yesterday I had one of the greatest clear flashes ever, I could see the windows of some houses on a small hill at least 3 or 4 kilometers away very clearly. It kind of reminded me of the eagle eye vision I had as a child.
Even if my eyesight has not permanently improved yet, the whole Bates experience has been great and I learned a lot about myself and everything in the last few months. It really isn't only about eyesight improvement, and I honestly desire to change my way of being too.
Re: being less - sassisailor - 02-23-2008
David,
I love the direction you took with this post and I have never read anything that ties together the concepts of mindfulness to the Bates Method like you did. I am very thankful that you have made this connection! I have been studying Zen Buddhism for years but had never thought to incorporate what I learned about "when you sit, just sit; when you eat, just eat" - to - "when I see, just see" since I started the Bates Method two months ago. I was trying to make the Bates Method much more complicated, probably like the majority of people. There are some very important ramifications for what you have presented here!
There was mention that people may not like the "spiritual" tone that these post have. While mindfulness has roots in Buddhism I don't believe they have to be associated ONLY with a spiritual path - that is just where the vocalization of the concept originated (although I think it is a rewarding path). I truly believe that mindfulness is the only true 'way', or to put it another way, true living. Any other method of 'being' is stressful, inefficient, and not natural.
Thank you David for this insight, it's truly encouraging. I think this will help my progress tremendously.
Re: being less - Summon-Pretty-Peace - 02-23-2008
sassisailor Wrote:David,
There was mention that people may not like the "spiritual" tone that these post have. While mindfulness has roots in Buddhism I don't believe they have to be associated ONLY with a spiritual path - that is just where the vocalization of the concept originated (although I think it is a rewarding path). I truly believe that mindfulness is the only true 'way', or to put it another way, true living. Any other method of 'being' is stressful, inefficient, and not natural.
Thank you David for this insight, it's truly encouraging. I think this will help my progress tremendously.
I agree. When I tell people I am trying vision recovery by relaxing my eyes, they seem to think it sounds too new age-ish, but relaxation isn't really a spiritual or religious thing. Thanks David for the post. I do have trouble remembering that the principles of vision recovery should be natural, not forced and analyzed.
Re: being less - David - 02-24-2008
Actually I wasn't aware that I was talking about mindfulness. I have a vague idea of what that is and can see why it would apply here, but I haven't studied it myself. I think the best way to explain things like this is to be literal and specific, and let people extrapolate as they will, or else it does sound too spiritual.
A good example was how I was in the shower yesterday morning, and like I suggested, I caught my mind running. I was thinking about a customer that I had issues with. And yet there was nothing about the situation that required me to think or feel over the elements again. All it did was bother me. So I took a breath and stopped thinking, and it was gone. And we've all done that, right? Mulled over and over about things that we can't do anything more about and inevitably just start thinking about some random thing when all we intended to do was to take a shower. The "inner dialogue" has gotten to be such an accepted part of living, but when you take a good look at it, the fact that it's there at all is strange and scary. And I think stopping that, in the moment, and being without it is much the same thing as stopping the strain and misuse of the eyes that causes and endlessly perpetuates vision problems. The beauty of it, like I said before, is you don't have to figure anything out as far as using your eyes right, any more than you have to figure out how to pump blood through your heart. Your body will do it for you if you simply cease in preventing it from doing so. Eye doctors are not the problem, and neither are glasses. I love that old quote - "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
With these concepts in mind I think I should say that I don't think the Bates method as Dr. Bates described it is perfect. If it were the best approach possible, I think people would not struggle so much with it and become so confused and lost in trying to apply the principles and learn to do the exercises. Bates's view is certainly more accurate than that the prevailing one of mainstream eye care, and more useful, but there's another perspective, one that perhaps is simpler to apply in recovering from vision problems, and that's what I want to present with this.
Dave
Re: being less - onamission - 02-24-2008
I dont agree with that.I think it is the best possible approach but you have to really understand it and be patience.Alot of people want quick cures and so they strain or put effort into trying to improve there sight,Which is wrong.There are people that cured themselves and there are people that had no success in it.I do agree with what you said about the shower thing,Bates said that vision starts with thought and straining or putting effort to see is simply a wrong thought in which we are constantly creating and we must replace that thought with that of no effort(relaxation).This method hasnt change over the years,ever one who talks about vision improvement gives you the same treatment but in there own way.So in my opinion this method is perfect.But its a matter of how well you understand it and how well you apply the method.
Re: being less - rolfey - 03-10-2008
Hi,
Just to add to the debate here!
First off I would like to make my position clear; Iâm not here to dis the Bates method in any way as I too am practicing.
I just have a few posers which I personally would like to hear what people have to say about it.
What about people with good eyesight?
We have heard mention about changing your whole being, and relaxation methods, and your whole outlook on life, but I say again, what about people with good eyesight, have they had to make large changes to their life to maintain their eyesight, I think not.
Now I work in the city, and see people on the tube every day that appear to have good vision, these people must have stressful jobs and lives like the rest of us, so why isnât their vision defective?
Could we say that their mind hasnât forgotten how to see in the right manor and ours has?
Just to reiterate, I am not here to dis Bates, but I thought it would be interesting to see what people have to say, what theoryâs they have, I myself am trying desperately to improve my vision, and more than willing to make changes to my outlook, but this question is niggling in the back on my mind.
Mike
Re: being less - Oleg K. - 03-10-2008
The ways how people strain are countless. Even the ways how people strain their eyesight are countless, just read the THE ILLUSIONS OF IMPERFECT AND OF NORMAL SIGHT chapter of the Bates book. Each kind of strain causes its own effect on your vision and on your entire body. If a person is under constant pressure and strain, and doesn't know how to relax, he or she will sooner or later face troubles, whether it will be eyesight problems or whatever else.
Re: being less - Oleg K. - 03-10-2008
By the way, Dr. Bates didn't write anything about "being less" or changing your personality etc. In fact, his texts are much more mundane and practical. What Dave writes about, I think, is a logical continuation of Bates method, because when you reveal the strain you've been under for years, and feel the wonderful relief after you let go of it, the next thing you do is question the other sides of your lifestyle, your personality etc. to see if more developments are possible. I can quite imagine however that there are people who just cure their eyesight and go away.
Re: being less - Bryan - 03-12-2008
rolfey Wrote:Hi,
Just to add to the debate here!
First off I would like to make my position clear; Iâm not here to dis the Bates method in any way as I too am practicing.
I just have a few posers which I personally would like to hear what people have to say about it.
What about people with good eyesight?
We have heard mention about changing your whole being, and relaxation methods, and your whole outlook on life, but I say again, what about people with good eyesight, have they had to make large changes to their life to maintain their eyesight, I think not.
Now I work in the city, and see people on the tube every day that appear to have good vision, these people must have stressful jobs and lives like the rest of us, so why isnât their vision defective?
Could we say that their mind hasnât forgotten how to see in the right manor and ours has?
Just to reiterate, I am not here to dis Bates, but I thought it would be interesting to see what people have to say, what theoryâs they have, I myself am trying desperately to improve my vision, and more than willing to make changes to my outlook, but this question is niggling in the back on my mind.
Mike
There is a difference between stress and strain. stress is outside influences that are unavoidable. Strain is inside your body and is how you react to outside influences, and it is avoidable.
You can be in a stressful situation yet not strain. people react to stess in different ways. Some people strain when in a stressful situation, and some people stay relaxed and face the situation head on.
Anyway thats my opinion.
Re: being less - eagleguy - 12-25-2011
David Wrote:Oleg,So I'm starting to get what you mean by your eyes are already perfect. So you mean right now I just have to practice palming to get rid of the strain that's causing my vision to be imperfect? After all the strain is let go, my vision will be normal?
I think it's a matter of degree. If you let go of all the strain, your vision should clear up very quickly, so you must just be letting go of some or most of it, while there's something left that you're hanging onto. Conceivably there could be such a thing as an eye that has just lost its ability to focus, but I think it's rare that just myopia would cause that. But something like presbyopia, old age vision loss, is kind of a grey area, because when someone's physical body is clearly degenerating it isn't unreasonable to expect that the eyes are losing their ability to function too.
Dave
Re: being less - David - 12-25-2011
eagleguy Wrote:David Wrote:Oleg,So I'm starting to get what you mean by your eyes are already perfect. So you mean right now I just have to practice palming to get rid of the strain that's causing my vision to be imperfect? After all the strain is let go, my vision will be normal?
I think it's a matter of degree. If you let go of all the strain, your vision should clear up very quickly, so you must just be letting go of some or most of it, while there's something left that you're hanging onto. Conceivably there could be such a thing as an eye that has just lost its ability to focus, but I think it's rare that just myopia would cause that. But something like presbyopia, old age vision loss, is kind of a grey area, because when someone's physical body is clearly degenerating it isn't unreasonable to expect that the eyes are losing their ability to function too.
Dave
If you want my opinion, I'd recommend reading my latest blog posts. You're pulling up threads from 4 years ago, and I had a different view of things back then. I don't agree with everything I wrote so long ago. Palming is okay, but for most people it's not the complete answer and is of limited benefit only, and only in a certain context.
Re: being less - woblaud - 12-26-2011
So far this is the only way I can maintain good amount of vision for long periods. Everything seems to slow down if I get it just right.