I know I am in danger of getting some strong responses about not wearing glasses at all, but I wondered what level of prescription to go down to to have a hope of being able to work at my computer (which I have to do all day).
I am not against getting rid of my glasses or afraid of it - I try and do what I can without them e.g. morning activities, walking to work. But it is all very well if you are -3 telling people to get rid of their glasses - if my eyes were only that bad I would, believe me!
Practically speaking I am not going to get there in one jump from -8 to 0 (and still be able to hold down a job). So what level of prescription should I go for? I have tried moving the monitor closer but at the moment cannot work with it. I just need to improve my eyes enough to be able to get rid of the glasses altogether.
Having been at that "level" of myopia myself -- I know how difficult it is.
Quote:I know I am in danger of getting some strong responses about not wearing glasses at all, but I wondered what level of prescription to go down to to have a hope of being able to work at my computer (which I have to do all day).
I am not against getting rid of my glasses or afraid of it - I try and do what I can without them e.g. morning activities, walking to work. But it is all very well if you are -3 telling people to get rid of their glasses - if my eyes were only that bad I would, believe me!
Otis> Your Snellen is about 20/560 (about 20/70 for each diopter, therefore 70 x 8 = 560 -- APPROXIMATE).
For starters, you might reduce that -8 dipoters by 2 diopters to -6 diopters, and use that for all
computer and other close work. Vision will be clear to 20 inches, and "workable" to about 25 inches. I did this,
and only used the -8 when driving (to always be legal).
Quote:Practically speaking I am not going to get there in one jump from -8 to 0 (and still be able to hold down a job).
Otis> The bitter "reality" of this terrible situation. I do know of one person (Sassy) who is attempting to
work her way out of it.
Quote: So what level of prescription should I go for?
Otis> For clear-near? Reduce by 2 diopters.
Quote: I have tried moving the monitor closer but at the moment cannot work with it. I just need to improve my eyes enough to be able to get rid of the glasses altogether.
Otis> You can obtain -6 diopter lenses from Zennioptical for about $9. Shipping is about $5. (I do NOT provide
"medical advice". That judgement must be yours alone.)
Many thanks for your detailed response, and is something I can now follow up. Don't worry - I know you are not giving medical advice. I live in the UK so have less chance of a successful lawsuit anyway!!
I was going without glasses as much as possible yesterday, the trouble is that when I have no choice but to wear some glasses (e.g. computer work, or even checking what platform my train is on) going back to my -8 / -8.5 lenses is a real strain and I feel undoes the benefit of no glasses to some extent. I certainly feel that I am overprescribed anyway for computer work, given they are set up for focussing at 20 feet I understand, so -6 / -6.5 should be a lot less painful.
One other point, my prescription has a -0.25 in each eye for cylinder (presumably this is for astigmatism and I put 0 down when ordering?) and I have axis of 170 and 180 - presumably these stay as they are?
It is possible to have 20/20 and "astigmatism" of -1 diopter. Anything less than
that value, and you can "convert" to spherical equivalent.
I always insited "no astigmatism -- no "cyl". (If I could pass the LEGAL requirement of
20/40 or better). If they refused to do that -- then I found an OD who would
work with that requirement.
Quote:I was going without glasses as much as possible yesterday, the trouble is that when I have no choice but to wear some glasses (e.g. computer work, or even checking what platform my train is on) going back to my -8 / -8.5 lenses is a real strain and I feel undoes the benefit of no glasses to some extent. I certainly feel that I am overprescribed anyway for computer work, given they are set up for focussing at 20 feet I understand, so -6 / -6.5 should be a lot less painful.
Otis> Typicallly -- from the start -- these ODs believe you want 20/20, 20/18, 20/15 -- so they over prescribe consistently
by -1 to -2 diopters. That is the real reason for "stair-case myopia". We "induce" it in ourselves, but they
"kill" our eyes with that "policy". This is why Bates so strongly OBJECTED to the use of the minus.
Quote:One other point, my prescription has a -0.25 in each eye for cylinder (presumably this is for astigmatism and I put 0 down when ordering?) and I have axis of 170 and 180 - presumably these stay as they are?
Otis> As per above, the 1/4 diotper is the smallest "measurement unit". It is practically nothing. What is normally done, is
to just take 1/2 the astigmatism value and add it to the "first number". For eample, if a prescription was:
-7 diopters, cyl, -1 at 170 degrees, you would convert to:
The 'stair-case' myopia is spot on what I have had. Also the stress of the eye-'test' itself means you are unlikely to be seeing well.
I went to a different OD the other day for the first time. She asked if I has my glasses so she could take a look and I said I would prefer not - to go from scratch as it were. She got very defensive and almost stopped the test on the basis that there wasn't trust between us. I kept trying to explain why but she wasn't interested. After realising I couldn't see much (I hadn't even started BM then) she went straight for some strong lenses that I could read the bottom line with, then did minor corrections (better with 1 or 2) and declared it finished.
Now i've started thinking, hang on a minute, we never approached the bottom line gradually, we just went straight there, so how does she know I can't read it with a lower prescription?
I didn't fit the ' how bad are my eyes and do I need new glasses' box so she couldn't cope it seems
Again, I MUST defer to Dr. Bates. He saw the minus as "optical poison". It is just that he
did not get this "point" across to the public. (That was NOT his fault!)
Quote:The 'stair-case' myopia is spot on what I have had. Also the stress of the eye-'test' itself means you are unlikely to be seeing well.
Otis> Right on, brother. I will post a "Video" of this stress (if you can get video on your computer) shortly.
I went to a different OD the other day for the first time. She asked if I has my glasses so she could take a look and I said I would prefer not - to go from scratch as it were. She got very defensive and almost stopped the test on the basis that there wasn't trust between us. I kept trying to explain why but she wasn't interested. After realising I couldn't see much (I hadn't even started BM then) she went straight for some strong lenses that I could read the bottom line with, then did minor corrections (better with 1 or 2) and declared it finished.
Otis> These majority-opinion ODs are in a rush to "crank" the strongest minus possible. (This is so-called "best visual acuity".)
A child might well have 20/40 vision (pass the DMV) and yet wind up with a -2 diotper lens and be told to wear
it 24/7. Afther that, he will not have 20/40 for much longer.
Quote:Now i've started thinking, hang on a minute, we never approached the bottom line gradually, we just went straight there, so how does she know I can't read it with a lower prescription?
Otis> That is "standard practice" -- at its worst.
Quote:I didn't fit the ' how bad are my eyes and do I need new glasses' box so she couldn't cope it seems
Otis> I "gave up" on this "process" -- after some ODs and MDs (leadership by Bates/Prentice) explained why
a minus should only be provided with a strong warning to not use it unless absolutely necessary.
Otis> But very few people will understand WHY a lens that makes it very, very sharp -- should
be avoided -- at the thrshold.
Otis> This is what "killed" Bates 1913 study. Public apathy, the impressive effect of a
strong minus, the "school board" could not take "pressure" from the majority-opinion medical
organization, etc.
Otis> That is why I consider Bates a leader in "objecting" to that first minus lens.
Hi Bob, My sister and I both started with the same prescription as you did last year. We both keep blogs of our progress:
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where we've both kept detailed records of everything we do. I have some static pages that might help you ('Timeline' has all of my glasses I've used).
Everyone is different. In retrospect, I think it's not worth thinking so much about the reduced prescription. Just fork out the money and you will find the right balance of blur/reduced diopter by trial and error. It's faster than reading endless posts. (In the UK you have to tell the company that your optometrist prescribed these for computer use)
I find if I sit down and look at my computer screen, it's blurry. However, if I start touch typing and getting on with things, then it clears up and I can work without glasses at a normal distance after 5 minutes. That's just a heads up to remind you to give yourself time to experience vision improvement, even in situations where you think you may need glasses. At least once a week try something without glasses (safely) that you normally think you need them for and progress may speed up.
Here's my experience:
Leave out the astigmatism if it's less than 0.5D.
I tried -7.00 first and it looked just as clear as -8.00 (nearly at night). Then I got -6.25 (still with astigmatism 0.5). From there I got -5.5, and now -5.0. I'll be dropping them in bigger steps now because I need them less and less for work. Don't squint or strain to see through weak glasses, this means they are too weak. Put up a Snellen chart in your home and see for yourself what you can see through them. I find that a pair that gives me 20/60 is good for computer, and in order to do all things work related, I need at least 20/30 correction. This can guide you a bit because if you get a pair that is a 20/40 prescription, then you know it might be a bit too strong for computer use.
I went back to the optometrist 8 months after drastically reducing glasses prescription and use, and by practicing the Bates method daily and my official prescription is 0.5D better! In practice, I get by with 3 D lower than my prescription.
I always feel a transition period between pairs of glasses and find myself wanting the stronger pair back. My eyes will feel weird and don't like the first couple of days. For this reason I don't switch between a reduced computer and reduced distance pair, I just get a reduced pair (20/60) and wait for my eyes to get to 20/30 before getting the next pair.
I have no problem discarding my glasses when i feel able (out and about, simple tasks at home) but am still too concscious of what I am and am not seeing. It's hard to relax, especially with 2 small kids in the house, and hence also difficult to do exercises. Also, I am generally so tired with sleepless nights that I find my eyes closing a lot of the time.
I am interested in your definition of 'squint', as you also mentioned it here:
I find my eyes feel more relaxed when de-focused (i.e. both looking straight ahead and producing double-vision) - but you seem to call this squinting. This seems to produce images that appear closer to me, particularly if done over 5-10 minutes.
What I would call squinting is nearly closing my eyes - this actually seems to improve my ability to see, but I am concerned that i should not be doing one or both of these things.
I think I got improved vision when out and about the other day, looking up at the leaves on the trees and suddenly my eyes felt more relaxed and I felt 'free' (which was equivalent to the all-round feeling of freedom when wearing contact lenses). I felt I could see people's faces more clearly as they passed by and read signs better - but I have not managed to repeat this and fear that either I was imagining it, or that I am too keen to repeat and will be unable to relax enough to get there.
Don't worry, progress is slow adn there are ups and downs. The important thing I've found is to be consistent (reading Snellen, walking without glasses, practicing memory and imagination, central-fixation) with the method.
Squint is a confusing word here. In Bates's time, squint meant being cross-eyed. That is how I meant it in the post you referenced. It may feel relaxing to create double images, but I would recommend instead to close the eyes and imagine something pleasant in the distance (like a train pulling away...)
Nowadays, squint means what you said, making the eyes into slits to try to see something 0 BAD! Definitely don't do this, it's the opposite of every relaxation technique and will cause worse myopia (in my own experience). It's better to open the eyes wider, blink softly and more often, and slightly sway the body. This may clear things enough to see better. Before squinting to see something, ask yourself if you really have to see it. Try using central fixation, just see a small part of what you want to see, don't try to see all of it at once.
I went shopping today in town and left my glasses at home because I knew otherwise I'd put them on. To look through the magazine stands without getting embarrassingly close, I just slowly stood there shifting around the magazine cover: first looking at part of one letter of the title, then part of the picture, and so on and usually this enabled me to tell what magazine it was.
Can you find someone (friend, spouse, coworker) who will try the method with you? I find discussing the ups and downs with my sister vital in this whole process. We'll read different things, have different successes and frustrations, and it's great to have someone remind me that even though I don't have perfect sight now, I often do for 20-30 minutes at a time!
When you have clear flashes - dodge them! Don't look at what you see clearly, look at the next object, and the next object! That's when the clear flashes turn into very long periods of clear (or clearer) eyesight. Because by not staring at your clear flash, you enable it to continue! I've recently learned that by dodging clear vision, I end up demonstrating central fixation to myself: everywhere I look is clear, and everything else is less clear. So if I want to see something, I look at it: then it becomes clear and the last point I was looking at becomes less clear.
And yes, you were imagining your clear flash and that's how it should be- because perfect vision is imagined, not seen. My partner with normal sight was describing to me things he imagines in his head to calm himself down at night before sleeping. I mentioned to him that I have difficulty imaging much and his first instinctual response was: then how do you see?
Hope I didn't overload you there. I think I can be overenthusiastic trying to help people and write too much! I remember starting this whole process last year and feeling so confused and hoping for any help I could get from people with experience. Though I'm not completely relieved of eyestrain, I have improved to the point where I can use a computer from a normal distance without glasses (as a fellow -8 glasses sufferer, I'm sure you agree with me that's amazing success!) so I like to help others do the same. It may take you a year or three years, but I can vouch for the benefits being worth the patience.
I'll be travelling a lot over the next month, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to peak in here until January. II hope you keep going! Don't try to learn everything all at once, just read a chapter of Bates or an eyesight improvement book every day, and when you're feeling down keep an archive of inspiring posts that you've found here and elsewhere on the web.
I hope you mean my posts are an optimum! thank you, I'll try to keep looking in as often as I can. My vision clears as I write the posts! When I start writing I'm thinking of many thoughts and the screen is a bit blury. Then as I write and think pleasant thoughts about the people hopefully reading the posts, I sit in a more relaxed way and I'm able to read my writing with perfect vision.
I'll always be around here on and off. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't have made it this far!
I agree with Otto - you are an angel. Don't worry about giving too much detail.
I started around the same time as yourself but from a worse baseline and while there sometimes seem to be less downs than ups I'm getting there, I just know it. All the same I can confirm most of what you say here (the rest I'll try out).
I'm integrating relaxation more and more into my daily routine. As you say it's surprising how much you can see if you just give yourself a little time. I know all about Bob's difficulty in maintaining the relaxation as I find it a challenge in extending the "static" relaxation routines into the intervening periods. In recent weeks and months I find watching a football match on the tv or the Simpsons very helpful (my young son's a fan of both) - I'm sufficiently interested to want to follow the action but not so much that I strain after clarity. If I can avoid being disturbed for a couple of minutes, maybe 5, and just settle into it it clears.
Thanks! I'll have to try what you say about watching tv "sufficiently interested to watch the moevement but not enough to strain", that's great. We don't have a tv but watch movies on our laptops. I only recently started watching them without glasses, and it's just as you say, relaxing. Perhaps I'll do this more; now that you've brought it to my attention, my eyes are always more clear at teh end of the movie than the beginning. It's really great to be reminded by others of things that work well that I haven't tried in a while!
Thanks again for very informative and useful response.
Very interesting this 'what you see perfectly is imagined' - bit hard to get my head around! Anyway, I'll do as you suggest, slow sure progression if I can.
thank you, I'll try to keep looking in as often as I can. My vision clears as I write the posts! When I start writing I'm thinking of many thoughts and the screen is a bit blury. Then as I write and think pleasant thoughts about the people hopefully reading the posts, I sit in a more relaxed way and I'm able to read my writing with perfect vision.