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mistakes
#16
David Wrote:hammer,

Quote:But, there is a but. Because in our society we have to use our central vision field a lot more than we had to in ancient times, and this means that we do not get enough relaxation anymore.

In what way?
...
I'm confused about the second part of your sentence, because at the end of your post you acknowledged that when using your central vision in a certain way you feel relaxed.

David,
I get what you mean, but still I have to convince you.
Let's take an example that is grounded on statistics.
In Asia myopia is more common than in Europe or in USA, why is it ?
I mean people are not that different at all when you analyse the DNA, we are almost exactly the same.
So what is the difference.
There is one possible explanation to this and it is that the alphabet in Asia is far more complex and different of course compared to the European alphabet. I don't know if you can talk about an Asian alphabet, but assume you can. Then you of course needs to use your central vision in a very extreme way in order to see each character when you read a newspaper for instance. This results in that the mind eventually thinks that it is too much effort, and instead you use some peripheral vison instead as a compensation, thus you begin to stare, and when trapped you cannot see details accurate enough due to tensed vision system. You start to live in an illusion that is far from being present, and sometimes the reality reminds you with its respect that you actually take part in the reality in the moment.

Ok Smile hope it was a bit of an explanation.



Then about your confusion about my second part.
When I use the central vision in the right way I feel really relaxed, yes, that is true.
But, in my case the central vision alone cannot improve my vision and remove tension.
Instead it is a state of the mind "the inner self" that enables my vision to function properly,
that is function in a more accurate and precise way.
This is what I am experimenting with now, that is to find my "self".
I wrote about it on the "peace in mind" thread.
Yes, I believe in getting some kind of a relaxed state in the mind.
I am a bit confused if this natural state of the mind depends on the personality.
I myself is rather calm actually, and thus I am confused about if this state of mind just happens to suit me personally or if it can be wider applied to most people.
I though actually think that there is one natural state of the mind, and it is because the human is a real time machine, technically speaking, the human body wants fast reponse, cannot wait, you need to be present,
thus I think there is just this natural state that actually, when it is combined with natural visual habits can improve vision.
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#17
Hi hammer,

I'm Asian and just to let you know, ( I'm taking Chinese characters as an example ), when people read Chinese characters, they don't scrutinize the details that much. Most adults that I know of, who are of not school-going age, and who read Chinese newspapers regularly, actually can't remember how to write the more complicated characters if you ask them to.
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#18
I always thought that it was the other way round:

At the reading distance there is no need to focus 1 small point to see it clearly, so no need for many saccadic movements.
You can 'freeze' your look to recognize more letters at a time, and train this capacity to see not only 1 word at a short glance but to grasp the meaning of a whole sentence without reading it word after word and even go through whole paragraphs and entire pages that way.
So we train our peripheral vision continuously by increasing our reading speed - right from the start of school.

This effect is increased - in my opinion - by stress, which causes a state of 'alert' in our body, all 'systems' are 'tuned' on 'fight or flight' ; every small movement in the periphery has to be registered at once - it could be an attack.
That seems to be the reason, why stress can lower clear distant vision; the possibility to see small details distinctly is reduced for the sake of full attention on the whole vision field simultaneously.

The reason why in Asian countries there is such a sudden increase of myopia I explained (to myself) by the fact, that in our culture reading and writing has been present in a large part of our population for a much longer time and increased slowly over generations. So there has been a slow habituation.
In Asian countries only much smaller parts of the population had access to reading and writing and the change during the last century has been too fast for the visual system.
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#19
Marlene Wrote:Hi hammer,

I'm Asian and just to let you know, ( I'm taking Chinese characters as an example ), when people read Chinese characters, they don't scrutinize the details that much. Most adults that I know of, who are of not school-going age, and who read Chinese newspapers regularly, actually can't remember how to write the more complicated characters if you ask them to.


Marlene,
That was interesting.
But, when you are in not school-going age you have already learnt the false visual habits.
What was/is it like in school in China when they learn to read and write there in early school-going age,
was there anxiety and worry also involved ?
I see in front of me a Chinese child that needs to learn every single detail of each character,
tries to remember it and tries to imagine it. At first glance you would say that this learning process is exactly the one that Bates teached regarding central fixation, imagination.
But, the truth is that instead the mind decides to unlearn the central fixation, because it was too much effort involved in trying to see each detail of each character.
Thus the consequence became that you eventually ended up with wrong visual habits.
So there was a demand in the first place of central fixation, in other words everything went right at an initial phase, but that was gradually unlearnt over time, and eventually you had even forgotten how to write the characters, because of the distorsion to the mind, worry and anxiety distorts the mind.
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#20
Nini Wrote:I always thought that it was the other way round:

At the reading distance there is no need to focus 1 small point to see it clearly, so no need for many saccadic movements.
You can 'freeze' your look to recognize more letters at a time, and train this capacity to see not only 1 word at a short glance but to grasp the meaning of a whole sentence without reading it word after word and even go through whole paragraphs and entire pages that way.
So we train our peripheral vision continuously by increasing our reading speed - right from the start of school.

This effect is increased - in my opinion - by stress, which causes a state of 'alert' in our body, all 'systems' are 'tuned' on 'fight or flight' ; every small movement in the periphery has to be registered at once - it could be an attack.
That seems to be the reason, why stress can lower clear distant vision; the possibility to see small details distinctly is reduced for the sake of full attention on the whole vision field simultaneously.

The reason why in Asian countries there is such a sudden increase of myopia I explained (to myself) by the fact, that in our culture reading and writing has been present in a large part of our population for a much longer time and increased slowly over generations. So there has been a slow habituation.
In Asian countries only much smaller parts of the population had access to reading and writing and the change during the last century has been too fast for the visual system.

I think we mean the same thing. What I mean is that there was initially (in the first place) an unnatural demand for central fixation,
but the vision system had to unlearn the correct way of seeing things due to too much effort, and thus it is like you write that the peripheral vision was trained more and so on. Then eventually you have to reprogram the vision system in order to get back the visual habits based on relaxed central fixation. But it is not a matter of what must be done, it is a matter of how you shall do it.

You also write about the stress factor. In retrospect I realize that the Bates method is a way to reduce stress also, that is why it is of general interest to people. For instance the Bates method strengthens the immune system and it has a long list of positive consequences.

Regarding nearsightedness in China:
Nearsightedness (Myopia) According to the most recent survey, about 50% Chinese teenagers are suffered from nearsightedeness compared with 15% in 1970's. (Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnd.org">http://www.cnd.org</a><!-- m --> Feb. 25, 2000)

I mean this statistics above shows that something have happened in China. Just during fourty years the myopia has increased with 333 %, I repeat 333 %, that is totally shocking evidence that the reading/writing/stress/computers/worry/anxiety causes nearsightedness. Everyone with a sound thinking realizes that this is the case !
Marlene: Maybe you know if there is some mental factor involved here, maybe there is a personal factor as well considering that each person has to compete really much with others and thus born to just think about themselves in order to get the best jobs, if you know what I mean, I mean I think there is lots of egoism in some way involved here hidden in the statistics due to the rapid increase. It could explain the myopia increase as well, just thinking.

And, 50% of the chines teenagers are myopic. I did not check up the same statistics for USA or Europe, but I think that there is about 25% nearsighted people in Europe/USA. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong ?

It is quite evident where I live (in Europe) that academic people have a lot higher degree of myopia compared to the working class. This is also a sign that central fixation is a key here.

I actually think there is a strong genetic factor as well, I do believe so. For instance my sister was much more myopic than me, I think she had about -8 diopters. Then what happened was that she married a man who have perfect eyesight despite that he is really academic. Then what happened was that all of her three sons did not get any myopia and these sons now have perfect eyesight. Sometimes I don't get this, it is crazy. But, on the other hand my mom and her two sisters were myopic despite that their parents had perfect eyesight.
I think what I have learnt about this is that you need to analyse statistics that includes a huge number of people, because else you will just get puzzled. Or do anyone see why these people got myopic ?
Also my dad has actually perfect eyesight, but I know the reason why he has perfect eyesight, ha, he is a botanist, that is why he has perfect eyesight, if you know Bates you understand me regarding this at least.
But persons with perfect eyesight just don't want to talk about it, they don't consider it anything special to talk about, they just don't care about it, the eyes just moves effortless because they don't even care about it in some way Wink Maybe the key is to not worry or stop worrying about things that you cannot affect. Maybe it is just that simple and become concerned instead. Change lifestyle and become concerned Wink
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#21
hammer Wrote:I mean this statistics above shows that something have happened in China. Just during fourty years the myopia has increased with 333 %, I repeat 333 %, that is totally shocking evidence that the reading/writing/stress/computers/worry/anxiety causes nearsightedness. Everyone with a sound thinking realizes that this is the case !


And, 50% of the chines teenagers are myopic. I did not check up the same statistics for USA or Europe, but I think that there is about 25% nearsighted people in Europe/USA. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong ?


I actually think there is a strong genetic factor as well, I do believe so.
I think you are right here; it's not due to the chinese written characters, but the change in lifestile. The same phenomena can be observerved in other Asian countries, especially in Singapore:
Quote:For instance, 70 per cent of 18-year-old men of Indian origin living in Singapore have myopia, while in India itself the rate is roughly 10 per cent.
By this evidance, the author even rejects the possibility of a genetic cause.
(The whole article: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6117-lifestyle-causes-myopia-not-genes.html">http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6 ... genes.html</a><!-- m --> )

Quote:But even if there are no big differences between population groups, genetic studies are important, says Christopher Hammond of St Thomas' Hospital in London. There might be some people whose vision remains perfect whatever their lifestyle.

"If we can identify the genes involved, we have a better chance of understanding the mechanisms involved and developing treatments," he points out.

In a study of 506 pairs of twins, Hammond found that when you take environment out of the equation, genes account for 87 per cent of the variation in short and long-sightedness. The team has identified several genes that may be involved, including PAX-6, which is known to be important in the development of the eye.

Journal reference: The American Journal of Human Genetics (vol 75, p 294)
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#22
David

Your reply of Sunday 20 Nov, 3.31.

That's exactly what I was thinking (and experiencing).
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#23
Nini Wrote:...
By this evidance, the author even rejects the possibility of a genetic cause.
(The whole article: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6117-lifestyle-causes-myopia-not-genes.html">http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6 ... genes.html</a><!-- m --> )
[/quote]


Nini,
In that article there was also stated (which surprised me):
"And it looks as if those lifestyle changes are beginning to be felt in some western countries too. In Sweden, for instance, 50 per cent of children aged 12 now have myopia. It is expected that when these children reach 18 the rate will be more than 70 per cent."

I happen to come from Sweden so I should actually know why this is the case.
I am 43 years old so I have experienced this period.
Sweden is a country that really depends on export, we need to be productive.
Each child in school often get their own computer for free and there is lots of near work of course in school.
When the kids come home they sit in front of the computer for very long time also (they use the computer for doing home work, social life, playing games etc.
The social life of many children is handled via the internet.
The weather is really bad in Sweden also. The summer is quite good, but the summer is really short.
The winters are really cold and full of snow. The autumns are rainy.
The winters and autumns are dark even if the snow might light up and compensate for the darkness in the winter.
So children in Sweden are very rarely outdoors nowadays.
They do not get outdoors spontaneously anymore, instead they have to plan and schedule a time for instance when they shall play for instance football for one hour, and that is it, in the past there where no such schedule and they played maybe four hours outdoors instead of just this single hour.
When you go outdoors spontaneously you also of course go out when it is sunny and good weather,
while on the other hand when you go out due to a for instance scheduled football training it is very likely that the weather is bad (i.e. rainy, no sun).
When I was young almost every child played sports outdoors with friends.
Today that is not the case, there are almost no children playing outdoors anymore.
So the little light children got in the past was keeping the myopia away to some extent.
Thus nowadays children in Sweden get more myopic.

I can actually just by looking at the eyes of a child see if that child have been outdoors lately.
It is easy to see. The eyes gets smaller and more full of life (look not so tired) when you have been outdoors. This is changing from day to day and you can see these changes also in the eyes thus.
In my opinion the lubrication and moisture on the surface of the eye is very important to maintain, and you do that when you spend time outdoors. Light is also affecting us, you get happy when you are exposed by light. That is why many buildings in Sweden have lots of big windows. As you know positive thoughts are keeping the mind relaxed, light <-> positive thoughts, do you see the relation.

Also kids thinks it is more fun playing games than observing real things, that is the attention is getting distorted. Worries, anxiety also distorts the mind.

I see all this but what how shall one in a more concerned way deal with the problem of how to stop it.
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#24
I think my biggest mistake so far was to avoid looking into distance. I must have had a false notion that looking nearpoint would push aside my vision problems because I wouldn't have to worry about it being blurry. However, it only made my eyes even more tense so they couldn't accomodate to looking far so they stung because they had been abused. Now at last looking into distance relaxes my eyes and when doing some close work I even sometimes feel the urge to do so.

When I was a child my father told me that my eyes were too weak and that's why I had to wear glasses. Having found the Bates method, I understood what was really the matter with my eyes, but I am afraid that subconsciously I kept expecting to see everything at once. Ergo, lack of central fixation and shifting.
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