Just thought that I would post a few tidbits from the chat box. Feel free to add interesting conversations as well!
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[Note: I have done a little editing for grammar/spelling and have left out the less relevant comments that were sandwiched between these.]
ted: If I may ask, can you remember what you were like before 20/20, behavior and emotionally, and how are you different now?
arocarty: Happier, of course, and much better sense of composure, am much more aware of my tendencies to get anxious, and how that translates into tension.
ted: One thing I'm working on at the moment is allowing my gaze to go where my attention guides. It's a habit that I think requires lots of present moment awareness to "know" when is the right time to shift.
arocarty: ...never thought about when the right time to shift was.... constantly shifting, so to me, there's no time for one NOT to shift...
no matter how small the area, I let my gaze keep moving around, even if just looking at one of these letters -
Pikachu: Do you have a certain mindset or think anything while you shift or does it just happen on its own? I have had problems trying to figure out whether I should be thinking one thing or another.
ted: My two cents. I don't think you should have to think about where you want to shift to. I feel like shifting your eyes and shifting your attention should happen simultaneously, and without "preparation". I may be off on this. What do y'all think?
arocarty: let's see, do I have a certain mindset or does it happen automatically. A little of both, I would say. I've been doing it so long it's barely on my mind, unless I sense strain, and it's a red flag that I need to provide a little more conscious shifting. At the beginning it required a lot more conscious shifting to break out of deeply ingrained staring habits.
I saw someone post a question about whether vision improvement is possible. And someone replied (not logged in) that they have improved their vision to 20/20 and sometimes they see 20/15. That's the first time I've ever actually heard of anyone saying that they've improved beyond 20/20. Incredible.
I'll try to post some bits as well if they come up.
ted: So how's your vision on a daily basis? Do you still "practice" these habits or are they mostly subconscious now?
arocarty: I'll still have to pay attention each day at some time or other, and remember to not strain, take a little time to rest the eyes. I don't really have to practice much, other than letting go of effort if I sense myself (I can feel it in my head) straining. I guess my shifting habits are pretty subconscious, at this point.
ted: That sounds nice. I've noticed how I have been able to shift somewhat effortlessly the past few days. It's very subtle, sensing when to shift and following through. Also, after watching some Meir Schneider videos, saying that it's good to practicing looking into the distance, and also practicing letting light into my eyes, these seemed to promote effortless shifting.
How did you deal with struggling about using glasses or not at night? Driving, or going out, seeing people at night, etc. It's difficult to go without glasses at these moments. But I try as much as possible to go without.
arocarty: With shifting yes, it can be quite subtle. But you have to believe that it's as easy as a thought - and that the eyes will NEVER get tired out from shifting. They can shift all day long, and you get used to the fact that you don't keep looking at the same point. I think I drove as little as possible, at night. and just dealt with not being able to recognize people and things from too great a distance. I don't feel I missed too much. Seeing in dark isn't easy for anyone. Now, everyone around me is getting more and more timid about night driving, oncoming headlights, and I'm wondering what all the fuss is about...
ted: Yeah, I sometimes feel like I am "obsessing" about not wearing my glasses as much as possible. But....the benefits seem to out way the negatives.
eaglevision: arocarty, I know each person is different but what was your last piece of the
puzzle that really put things straight for you?
arocarty: I think realizing that it takes no effort to let go. There was a time (too long a story for here) when I had just simply closed my eyes for a period of time, and for whatever reason, was in the right frame of mind such that I was able to let go of a tension that I didn't realize was there. Until it was released. My head felt something much different, as if something deep inside had been relieved. As though someone that was gripping, squeezing, pressurizing, was released. That's the best way to describe it. For a while, I was a little dumbfounded. It yielded a much longer episode that the usual flashes. So I went after more of that, I wanted more of that! But to get there, I had to realize I did nothing,
eaglevision: Yes, it's funny how almost all of the things in this life require effort to get, unlike eyesight.
arocarty: Yes, indeed, vision is opposite - it's more about the things we STOP doing - and I can attest to that.
arocarty: I did a lot of physical things, from the very beginning; too many to list. And I have to say that I wasted a lot of time thinking that It was a physical, not functional issue. Shifting on very small point at the near point seemed to help a little, if you call that a physical thing. But it wasn't until I found one day that I could just simply close my eyes and get significant relief. Most of the things I got benefit from were things that I had read, a million times, just didn't experiment with enough, or really believe would be effective.
Bates also used another unconventional technique - having people strain to see as close to the eyes as possible - he always observed that a strain at the nearpoint caused a temporary hyperopic shift (as opposed to a myopic shift). This helped some myopes, because it flattened the eyeball, which is the direction you want to go, as a myope.
I've held stuff right up to my nose, not that I could really read it, sometimes I would get a letter pop out. Never hurt, if anything, I'd go outside and distance vision would look even better.
ted: I guess it would work with looking at anything up close? As long as you're looking at tiny details, even that close-up.
arocarty: It's all tied in to the fact that strain at the nearpoint causes hyperopia. Starts at a very young age, and then in some, once conditioned to straining at near, starts to bleed over to their distance vision, which leads to a myopic pattern.
Yes, you don't have to necessarily read something, just look at something. Apply the same principles - shift attention to different parts of the letter, word, picture, logo. Small print is good because it gives you feedback, while other teeny tiny things might not give the same granularity of feedback.
Heck, I used to shift on the most minute things I could see - specks of dust, grains of salt, little reflections on glass. But when very small letter clear up, you know that something good happened, while with other things that might not be the case.. a speck is a speck, hard to tell if it's much clearer if I can see it already.
...
arocarty: One thing I would tell people is, you have the rest of you life to figure it out - if you're young, all the better. Don't get too anxious about it if it doesn't come right away. The answers are right there in front of you, you just aren't able to see them clearly.
Tsukiomi
yeah, I know what you mean. I am in the process of re-examining my vision improvement practicce
Chris B
impatience*
I want to recover my vision so bad
haha
Tsukiomi
yeah, Its especially bad when you get impatient after you have had some flashes of improvements. Its a difficult process, not many people write about it so there is a ton of confusion
That's why I am journaling as much as I can
Chris B
exactly
I really don't care that much about the scientific proof behind the process of plus lenses... it makes sense to me. i just want the process explained clearly
Tsukiomi
Yeah, I am very interested in that- but the information about the practice is the important stuff. Im sure if people who have recovered pool together much more sense could be made out of it. I have had many many flashes of improved vision and have been working towards a permanent one. I have had to constantly re-evaluate what I have been doing as I am not sure exactly what works. Lately its been mostly imagination. I seem to be near 20/40 now, but there hasn't been a permanent improvement yet.
Tsukiomi
At some point I should spend some time talking to someone who has recovered, that would probably help me immensely. Lately having tried imagination, I seem to be on the brink of something very important. SOmetimes using imagination I can get flashes of 20/25
Tsukiomi
I have also noticed that my flashes nowadays are more distinct and quick. I wonder if that happens the more you practice.It is certainly interesting
Tsukiomi
Although I don't intend to use plus lenses at all. I want to learn how to do it without tools of any kind (barring the snellen test chart) so I can try to explain it to others as well once I understand it and cure myself
Chris B
I really think
that if looking for long periods , hours, days, weeks, months and years at near stuff has contributed to our myopia then maybe if we spend a lot more time looking at far things we will gather our normal vision again?
Chris B
that's why the plus lenses make sense to me.. while you are looking at near stuff, the lens portrays it as if it was far then what you're actually doing is looking at far things while doing near stuff. Am I right?
Tsukiomi
I am certain that it is more complex than that. Certainly I didn't lose my vision because of too much near work (I barely opened a book as a child). Even science in recent years (2009) have started to reject those notions. I have read the literature about plus lenses, I would be surprised if it was that easy to restore the vision, but it could certainly be possible, although I don't plan on doing that (I am not attracted to lenses of any kind nowadays)
Chris B
This is my experience. When I was a kid (1 to 11 years old) my vision was extremely good. I could see better than many other people that didn't wear glasses. When I became 12 and entered 6th grade my school decided that our homeworks and everything else should be posted online. I then started using the computer for prolonged hours, from 6 to 8 hours daily. My vision started deteriorating and a teacher told me I was squinting in class so I needed glasses. I didn't listen to her and kept using the computer a lot. After my vision got worse I had to go and get minus glasses. Instead of improving my vision just got worse so it was until two weeks ago that I started my research on recovering my vision and found the plus lens method.
Tsukiomi
hmm. Did you eye hurt and feel tension while reading? it sounds like you were straining to read
Chris B
Not really. Near things look clear to me, and I never forced my vision to look at near stuff. But besides looking at the screen for many hours, I would also sometimes forget to turn the light on and then it did hurt because of the brightness of the screen.
Tsukiomi
I see. It is certainly true that sunlight is better for you. Limiting computer time certainly wouldn't be that hard of a change to make. Its worth a shot, but much of the bates method stuff is pretty easy to do- so its your call
Chris B
Oh maybe you misinterpreted me. I do believe in the Bates method too. But I think that a combination of both methods or therapies would give the best results. What's more, someone achieved it like that... look here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://gettingstronger.org/wp-content/pl..">http://gettingstronger.org/wp-content/pl..</a><!-- m -->.
Tsukiomi
its certainly and interesting idea. I wish you luck with that
Chris B
Thanks
I was thinking that the way to get results depends less on the method and more on how constant we are.
Guest Bianca
If you are considering Plus lens as part of vision improvement, you are wasting your time. It's that simple
Guest Bianca
Changes are made (and has to be) through our consciousness if you want to see any result, and not by the aid of a pair of glasses, whatever they are.
Chris B
I'm a spiritual being, I do believe in God and understand that consciousness and mind are important. But still we live in a physical body that needs physical aid too. We can't say that we will gain muscles and improve our health only through our mind and consciousness. We need exercise and nutritious food, that's why I do see the point of the plus lens it makes the eye work too even though our mind ALSO has to do a lot with it.
I wish people would use the chat box more, even in just asking a question when no one is online. If someone has a good response, they can say it half a day later and everyone can still see it. This would also help prevent overcrowding in the main threads.
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ted:
A basic question that I still find confusing:
Should one always be shifting, no matter how minute the shift?
is the lack of shifting the definition of staring?
Guest Aaron
lack of shifting is one characteristic, others are not blinking, concentrating too hard. The eye has to shift continuously, either on an unconscious level or conscious level. It's only at 'rest' or relaxed when it is continuously moving, even if making minute shifts.
ted
So....if one with normal vision is looking at a tiny letter the eyes are continually shifting. I got that. Now.....how long do they stay at each....shift.....before they move on. Is that time basically zero?
Guest Aaron
As long as you want - but why would you want to stay ?
ted
Huh. Let me think about that one
Guest Aaron
as long as you want *IF* you are looking at it with normal sight - continuously shifting, not straining, etc. But very seldom do people with normal sight keep looking at a tiny point. much less should someone with less than normal sight.
Guest Micah
Bates says; The fact is that the nearer the point of maximum vision approaches a mathematical point, which has no area, the better the sight. This means the tiny center of the fovea, exact central field; it moves continually point to point automatically, on its own causing very clear vision, the entire visual field appearing clear. The eye moves that point so fast; point changes rapidly. This occurs automatically with some general shifting practice and RELAXATION. Relax; the eye moves normally. Saccades.
Guest Luke
Rebuilding can imply that it takes some kind of effort - which is not the case. It's more about unpeeling layers of effort, allowing natural sight to take over. More about 'stopping the things we are doing,' as Bates said, than taking up and doing something, to 'rebuild'....
=============================================
So I've thinking about this idea of shifting. Continual shifting can mean shifting on a letter of fine print from far away. You are still shifting even though the shifts are very very tiny. That is why people say that even normal sighted people seem to be staring when in fact their eyes are still shifting, they are just shifting in tiny degrees.
ted Wrote:So I've thinking about this idea of shifting. Continual shifting can mean shifting on a letter of fine print from far away. You are still shifting even though the shifts are very very tiny. That is why people say that even normal sighted people seem to be staring when in fact their eyes are still shifting, they are just shifting in tiny degrees.
Hi Ted,
That's exactly right, that's a principle of normal sight - be it shifting on an object near, or far. You may not want to linger too long on a spot too tiny, as the peripheral rods can begin to adapt and fade. They need larger shifts interspersed in there to keep them happy and stimulated. (the "Troxler effect) The cones in the center of sight fade/adapt last, because they are so much more tightly packed together. How long are people w/ normal sight lingering around a very small point, before shifting to the next one, and then making more tiny unconscious movements. Probably not too long.
Quote: I think realizing that it takes no effort to let go. There was a time (too long a story for here) when I had just simply closed my eyes for a period of time, and for whatever reason, was in the right frame of mind such that I was able to let go of a tension that I didn't realize was there. Until it was released. My head felt something much different, as if something deep inside had been relieved. As though someone that was gripping, squeezing, pressurizing, was released. That's the best way to describe it. For a while, I was a little dumbfounded. It yielded a much longer episode that the usual flashes. So I went after more of that, I wanted more of that! But to get there, I had to realize I did nothing,
I was thinking about that first sentence earlier. The way I can relate to it is.....it takes no effort to let go of a thought that you've been holding onto. That holding on takes energy, and is taxing. Letting the thoughts flow and continue on takes less energy and feels a bit more comfortable, natural. All this stuff is much easier to sense, for me, while palming or closing the eyes. Lots of palming sessions throughout the day seem to help me get more in tune with the mind.
Guest Phoebe
Is improving vision about reprogramming the subconscious?
In other words, show our minds that there is another way of seeing
And perhaps this is why relaxation is so important?
Without relaxation our subconscious has nothing to fall back on?
Guest Alli
More about eliminating detrimental unconscious activity of the mind/visual system, which has incited chronic, abnormal tensions of the eye muscles, and eye shape.
I think this goes along with something David wrote:
Quote:When you are physically present as your breath, you are in control. Being physically present means that you notice your own few thoughts, as language or emotions, as something separate from what you are as a physical presence. You also notice your own physical actions more. So when you work with the eye chart or any other object or scene to work on your vision with, you can better notice what exactly you are doing, and you can catch yourself doing some interesting things that might be detrimental to your process of seeing. You have created your own situation that you find yourself in as a collection of habits that you allow to run your life. They aren't working for you. So take a moment to notice them and start to change them.
I think that a lot of this process is about stopping doing the detrimental things that have become ingrained habits. And maybe this is easier to do than starting doing the right things, if you don't know what the right things are exactly. How does that sound?
ted Wrote:I think that a lot of this process is about stopping doing the detrimental things that have become ingrained habits. And maybe this is easier to do than starting doing the right things, if you don't know what the right things are exactly. How does that sound?
Yes indeed, that is the name of the game. "Perfect sight can only be obtained quickly without effort or strain. The cure of imperfect sight, then, is to stop all effort. It is not accomplished by doing things; it can only come by the things that one stops doing." (BEM Mar'27)
But stop doing WHAT? That's key - knowing, becoming aware of, the things to stop that are hindering better vision. Effort and strain cause one to stare, to stop shifting, to stop blinking, stop seeing things moving, to stop looking at things with foveal vision. It all becomes a mass of bad, unconscious habits. To stop these habits, one must consciously learn to shift, learn to blink, learn to see things moving, learn to look with central fixation. All in an effortless manner. To do thing properly, doesn't take effort, is actually a relief from it. Some people can get a large degree of that relief just by practicing things that relax their nerves and/or tension - swinging, palming, closing eyes, etc. But they slip back into bad habits by the way they look at things. Hence the need to consciously practice things that encourage proper use of the eyes, combined with more passive methods aimed at relaxing nerves and tension.
Practicing to see the 10 line at 20 feet, low light. Then when it clears move farther away;
Some days it's easy to do. Other days (espicially when lot computer, eating sugar) I have to work at it. This defeats the purpose; not supposed to 'try hard to see'.
I practice shifitng, details (central-fixation or centralization as my teacher calls it) and looking close and far and this helps but; I always notice the chart is best when I have stopped practicing; when not thinking about the eyes, just active, positive moving around busy in my Apt. or the warehouse; suddenly I can see small lines at farther distances; they flash clear.
If I don't try to see; just relax real deep, let the eyes, attention move completely natural 'on their own'; relax, relax, blink; everything is very clear.
(I like the article David wrote about looking at a very small object and just let the eyes, visual attention move on its own; it might move away from the point, then comes back to it...)
Practice; then dont practice; let the eyes work solo! Just keep good, relaxed vision habits; no squinting, no staring... Shift if you catch yourself staring or if someting is blurry but basically; leave the eyes to work alone and they will do this independently. No glasses is best for alll this.
Guest Gabe
9:23 PM
As your vision improves, you'll find confidence you never thought would see
ted
9:26 PM
Yeah, that's what I was kinda of thinking. So, in a way, you have to have a desire to actually change some fundamental, deeply rooted things about yourself, in order to improve your vision. I feel like a LOT changes or will change in your mind and ways of behaving before noticeable improvements in vision occur. That's probably why it can be quite a challenge.
*a LOT of changes have to occur
Guest Gabe
9:28 PM
Yes, inasmuch as those things affect your vision -
Not everything affects vision that you might think, but as much of this is a mental process as much a physical, there's some truth to that.
ted
9:30 PM
Hmm, d'you have a specific example of something you thought affected it more than it really did?
Guest Gabe
9:31 PM
I thought that when being really down, like due to a loss of someone, or something very close may be adverse to vision, but it wasn't.
Guest Gabe
9:33 PM
In fact in those times/moments, one seems to be acutely in touch with the senses, and probably not thinking about vision so much
Quote:So, in a way, you have to have a desire to actually change some fundamental, deeply rooted things about yourself, in order to improve your vision.
Good point. til I could demonstrate and make the connection that seeing = relaxation, is when i started to see improvements in my vision.
Palming has certainly helped. Not sure to what degree, maybe to inject a break in constant straining.
Snellen chart reading - reading the lines my eyes were most comfortable with. I'd magnify the 20/200 line to about 3.5 inches on the laptop screen and read the chart at about 2 feet. My left eye I read 20/200 line and 20/160 with right eye. Reading any lower lines always strained.
Quote:refocus your mind on what you want instead of what you want to get away from.
Quote:This inhibition of the movement of the eyesâa movement of
which we are mainly unconsciousâis brought about by a too greedy desire to see.
In our over-eagerness we unconsciously immobilize the eyes
Eureka moment
Quote:Chapter XVII - Vision Under Adverse Conditions a Benefit to the Eye
Quote:There is no better way of curing squint than by making it worse, or by producing other kinds of squint.
Amongst all the straining, I could still improve my situation without having to deal with the strain directly.
ted
What kind of things helped you the most early on, eagle?
Like when you really first started getting permanent results.
eaglevision
1:02 PM
I did loads of stuff like fine print, blinking, palm swing etc..
but mainly started having better esults through imagination, and more so lately through mental control
ted
1:03 PM
I see
eaglevision
1:04 PM
it took a while for me to understand that everything is not seen but imagined
ted
1:05 PM
Yeah, I've read so much, but I still don't quite get it on a personal level.
But I did realize recently the thing about remembering from a distance where the object is seen best. I overlooked that.
eaglevision
1:06 PM
I told some guy a few weeks ago, that we do not see we only imagine so he told me to prove it
eaglevision
1:08 PM
I told him he will see without his eyes, he did not believe me so I told him to cover his eyes and picture a letter A after 5 minutes he saw it clearly, I told him he did not see it with his eyes but he saw it with his imagination, he put his hands down and saw two lines down thenchart he then understood that he must see with his imagination to see clearly
ted
1:09 PM
What was he doing in those five minutes for him to see it clearly? Why did he not see it clearly in seconds?
eaglevision
1:10 PM
and that when one part of the chart is seen best this is against reality as it is all equally black, this shows yet again that eyesight is completely imagined because illusions are imagined
I told him to imagine letters in the distance clearly, as ink and pure black
to not think but picture them he was able to after a few minutes picture things, as before his mind was unable to picture things from strain
ted
1:13 PM
Where did he gets this image of the A from? Was he looking at a letter A from a distance which he could see it best?
eaglevision
1:14 PM
yes I brought it up clear for him beforehand, and told him the wind was talking the letter further away in the distance, I told him not to loose the blackness of it.
lose*
he then imagined in the real life at the distance instead of using his eyes,
which is the key factor
ted
1:16 PM
What d'you mean you brought it up clear for him? Like you gave him an actual letter 'A' to look at? Or you described the letter to him while he palmed?
eaglevision
1:16 PM
yes actual printed letter
ted
1:17 PM
Ah okay.
Did he flash it?
eaglevision
1:17 PM
no
ted
1:18 PM
Just one glance, and then tried remembering it for 5 minutes?
eaglevision
1:20 PM
I have many relatives so when they see me doing bates, they think it is fake, I spend 5-20 until they get a good increase in vision and then they are belivers in the methodn. yes just picturing the letter for five mintutes
I talk them through it, like imagine snow like background picture ink black letter etc..
anyways do you do imagine sometimes?
ted
1:22 PM
Well I'm trying to figure out how to do it correctly.
Let me try it for five minutes.
eaglevision
1:23 PM
can you picture anything with eyes covered and closed?
ted
1:24 PM
Well, I think so, but I need to choose something.
eaglevision
1:25 PM
chose something you like and then later with letters.
ted
1:25 PM
I was going to choose some fine print.
eaglevision
1:25 PM
ok
ted
1:25 PM
A letter of fine print.
eaglevision
1:26 PM
picture maybe a number plate at the distance really clearly, or a blade of grass a mile away is sometimes good
ted
1:26 PM
So just remember it, imagine the white as white a snow on a sunny day, the ink as black as a black hole.
eaglevision
1:26 PM
letter of fine print is good too
ted
1:26 PM
Hmm, what about a letter of fine print from someone holding up a card like 50 feet away
eaglevision
1:26 PM
yes that is good
eaglevision
1:28 PM
one person in bates was cured by picturing a black ball being tossed into the waves the waves taking it further into the distance he was told to hold the same level of blackness at the far point, he then was cured, I have benefitted a lot through stuff like this,
and otherswhen I have told them to do it.
ted
1:29 PM
I see. Is this a fluid motion that you imagine? Of the ball going further and further out to sea? Or is it imagined in sortof "snapshots"
eaglevision
1:30 PM
any as long as you imagine the darkness the same as at the near poin.
point*
ted
1:31 PM
I see. Well Ill try this for 5 minutes while palming. I'll be back
eaglevision
1:33 PM
I would at first wave in front of their eyes the blackest object I have in my house to help them which was black ink.
eaglevision
1:38 PM
why it works is because when he imagines clearly at the distance he can then see clearly at the distance, prefering his imagination over his eyes at the far point, is what bates accomplished with many of his patients.
ted
1:45 PM
I am able to imagine a little, but I find myself getting distracted. I think I'll practice with this some more. I was, however, able to forget about my eyes and really go into a fairly detailed mental picture.
eaglevision
1:47 PM
it gets quicker with time.
ted
1:48 PM
it is best to stick with one mental picture, and keep working out the details of that? I was trying to picture someone holding up a card of fine print, but got hung up partly because I couldn't put a face to him.
eaglevision
1:49 PM
yes that is common at first sometimes the black is whity grey at first too
ted
1:52 PM
Seems like it's basically about picturing things in vivid detail. One thing though: if you can't imagine something perfectly unless you've seen it, then how can the lady imagine a black ball in the ocean, going further and further out to sea if she's hasn't seen a black ball clearly from that far away?
eaglevision
1:53 PM
he used a black ball as he was used to seeing them, he was a footballer I think
ted
1:54 PM
Ah
eaglevision
1:55 PM
by slowly imagining further away, and holding the level of black, it is possible even without seeing it beforehand. as we can picture things we have not seen for years.
good luck,
ted
1:56 PM
Well thanks for the advice, i'm going to experiment with all this.
