Is palming just a way to enter Hypnagogia?(sleep-like state)

[shocker]

I've recently been seeing the similarities between lucid dreaming and vision improvement.

Now to answer this question I'm going to define both Palming and Hypnogogia

Palming
From "Use Your Own Eyes"

This is a practice in which the hands are used to softly cover the eyes. The cheek bones rest on the heels of the hands, and the fingers cross above the eyes, with the eyes rest ing softly on the palms. The hands shut out all light. It is difficult to carry out this practice with a satisfactory result unless the elbows rest on a table in such a manner that all the muscles of the body are relaxed. The further effect is that such a deliberate and unusual gesture impresses the mind. To complete the procedure it is necessary to engage the mind continuously in some specific line of thought and not let it wander as it usually does.

Hypnagogia

From wikipedia: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia</a><!-- m -->

Hypnagogia is the experience of the transitional states to and from sleep: the hypnagogic and the hypnopompic states of consciousness.

An account on how to get into the state:

Eventually I found that you can actually start the hypnogogic process off manually instead of laying there waiting for it to kick in on its own. What i found is that if you mimic hypnogogia the mind will actually take control of it, sometimes after only a minute or so:

I'll first relax and empty my mind for a few seconds to clear out thoughts from the day. Usually this relaxation includes 3 deep and slow breaths holding my breath on the last one for around 8 seconds and then slowly releasing it. Once my mind is clear i begin mimicking hypnogogia, for me this works best by imagining one of my friends talking. At first im directing it kinda, ill start the first few sentences off, theres no subject, no direction the talkings going in, just words... After maybe the first few sentences Im not actually taking in the words but am passively making sure the speaking continues, alot of it will be almost randomness, just a random collection of words and noise but with the voices of my friends. After a few minutes the mind will takeover completely, im nearly always aware when this is happening and its interesting to observe, with the hypnogogic state set in i can usually predict when im going to fall asleep within around 20 seconds of it happening which is also kinda cool.

This is from this thread on dreamviews: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dreamviews.com/research/105141-hypnagogia-experiments.html">http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1051 ... ments.html</a><!-- m --> (a lot of gold in there)


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So from various sources I've realized the ideal palming session is for hours on length while relaxing all your muscles. Usually with your palms rested on a table. Your eyes are deprived of vision sensory. It wouldn't be surprising if one ends up in a sleep-like state.

Hypnagogia is ideally done lying down in a dark room while depriving yourself of any distractions (no sounds). One technique that's recommended is to keep your forearm perpendicular to the bed, so that if you go into deep sleep, your forearm drops on the bed thus waking you up. Your goal is to enter the state before sleep.

So both states relate to before-sleep state and involve visualization.... so what?

One thing I see discussed but often hardly explained is how we're supposed to "visualize"? Do we actually SEE the image we imagine with our eyes closed as if it's right there in front of us like on the back of the eyelids or do we see it in our mind's eye (distinct from seeing it like the spots we see on the back of our eyelids). I thought it was the latter because I thought there's no way to see an image clearly on the back of our eyelids frame. Or so I thought.

There's 2 things happening that lead me to believe it's the former (back of eyelids). First is in "Use your own eyes" the author asks the reader to demonstrate how to visualize an object by flashing. Basically you look at a SMALL PART of a letter on the snellen test card where you can see it clearly (just do it close up to get the point) and then continue looking at that point for 15 seconds while blinking. Then close your eyes for 15 seconds, and you should see the letter in either bright white or black. Personally I've only been able to see it in white. I literally see it right on the back of my eye lids, and even the letters surrounding it without even trying. Second thing was sleep paralysis/meditation state where I saw clear images.

From what I've read and tried, controlling the images on the back of eyelids is really difficult to do directly, even for the veterans on dreamviews. Although there are some who claim they can do it quite easily. One method is to lightly lead your mind into what you watn to see. Say if you want to imagine a beach then you would imagine a grain of sand and let your subconcious fill in the blanks, leading you to see seaguls , the ocean etc.

This is about as far as I've gone into my research so far, I'll post updates as I learn more. I think it would be cool to learn more about visualization from outside of the vision improvement community (check that dreamviews thread I posted above).

I'd also love to hear what you guys think about this.

[arocarty]

Basically you look at a SMALL PART of a letter on the snellen test card where you can see it clearly (just do it close up to get the point) and then continue looking at that point for 15 seconds while blinking. Then close your eyes for 15 seconds, and you should see the letter in either bright white or black. Personally I've only been able to see it in white.

The illusion of negative afterimages is simply a function of neural adaptation. By trying to hold a small point of some shape, it basically fatigues the retinal cells capturing said image, so they become temporarily less responsive when one looks away. The opposite color is seen where they have become fatigued, and it's most clearly seen when one immediately looks to some blank surface, or closes the eyes. There's a lot of popular images floating around the internet demonstrating the effect, some of the more notable ones being that of country flags, faces of popular figures in history, etc.

That being said, is there any benefit to it? In my opinion there isn't much. I never saw any point to it, after getting really good at producing them. First, it encourages you to stare at some point, rather than shifting from part to part or point to point; when you are seeing the illusion, you can try to shift around the image, but it moves in the direction you move your eyes. That's because it's tied to specific photocells, so it's impossible for anything to move oppositionally against different photocells. Once burnt in it's burnt in to those cells, til they recooperate and resensitize. This can also be done with any old image, whether it be a familiar one or not, or one that holds pleasant memories to us or not. The psychological ties of familiar things are very helpful in bringing one to a more relaxed state of mind. And the elements of movement and/or change are very important aspects of visualizing properly. Myopes imagine things stationary, or try to imagine one part of a thing too long. What you do in your imagination and memory, will translate directly to how you move the eyes, or rather, don't. I don't know where things are remembered in the head, whether that's in the back, front, top, side, or bottom of the brain. Just somewhere up there, and I don't think it really matters. When blocking out all light, how would it be possible to even see the back of the eyelid? Anything seen at that point is just the after-effects of the retinal cells, and how the brain is interpreting them.

Bates always encouraged patients to let their minds wander, on pleasant memories, when palming. The main point was to relax the mind, and eliminate the effort of trying to always imaging things stationary, or fix the mind on one part of one thing too long. Working on these things, in my estimation, is far more important than trying to pinpoint exactly where things are remembered in the mind, which may be a different experience for different individuals anyways.

[shocker]

The illusion of negative afterimages is simply a function of neural adaptation. By trying to hold a small point of some shape, it basically fatigues the retinal cells capturing said image, so they become temporarily less responsive when one looks away. The opposite color is seen where they have become fatigued, and it's most clearly seen when one immediately looks to some blank surface, or closes the eyes. There's a lot of popular images floating around the internet demonstrating the effect, some of the more notable ones being that of country flags, faces of popular figures in history, etc.

Interesting. That makes sense.

That being said, is there any benefit to it? In my opinion there isn't much. I never saw any point to it, after getting really good at producing them. First, it encourages you to stare at some point, rather than shifting from part to part or point to point; when you are seeing the illusion, you can try to shift around the image, but it moves in the direction you move your eyes. That's because it's tied to specific photocells, so it's impossible for anything to move oppositionally against different photocells. Once burnt in it's burnt in to those cells, til they recooperate and resensitize.

Ahh I've noticed this too, being unenable to shift. One thing I find interesting is that sometimes the afterimage letter disappears and then returns just as clear as the first time. This happens like 2-3 times (just as the author says it would). I wonder why this is? If the cells have resensitized then why would the letter come back if I haven't opened my eyes yet?

Another odd thing that happens is that the letter I'm looking at will be the first to disappear, and the letters surrounding this disapeared letter still remain clearly in the afterimage. The crazy thing is that I didn't even conciously acknowledge these letters. Just an observation I wanted to throw out there.

I'm starting to see your point on there not being much benefit, because personally it doesn't ever produce relaxation even when I get the results I'm seeking. I wonder if flashing is just an indicator of progress, instead of a method to actually gain that progress. I asked one of my friends with much better vision to do it at a distance away and he was able to get the afterimage, whereas I can't get it if I'm more than a foot away from the letter.

When blocking out all light, how would it be possible to even see the back of the eyelid? Anything seen at that point is just the after-effects of the retinal cells, and how the brain is interpreting them.

Sorry I worded that wrong. I wanted to distinguish between images seen in the same plane as the afterimage (which I called back of eyelid) and the images generated in the mind's eye.

Bates always encouraged patients to let their minds wander, on pleasant memories, when palming. The main point was to relax the mind, and eliminate the effort of trying to always imaging things stationary, or fix the mind on one part of one thing too long. Working on these things, in my estimation, is far more important than trying to pinpoint exactly where things are remembered in the mind, which may be a different experience for different individuals anyways.

For the sake of discussion, Is it even possible to imagine a memory stationary? Aren't memories almost like a video or motion picture?

I do agree with the goal being relaxation and not something fancy about learning neurology of the mind. My goal in this discussion is to take ideas from something different (lucid dreaming) and applying it towards vision improvement to obtain this relaxation.

Appreciate your reply arocarty.

[David]

You visualize first in the back of your head, or the mind's eye, and when it becomes clearer it might be like it's in front of you, to where you can sort of see it in front of you. Or at least that's been my experience. But I have to keep thinking of it in my mind, or keep generating it, and not just change to trying to "see" it, whether that's in front of me with my eyes open or on the back of my eyelids with them closed.

I have done the forearm thing while lying down and it would keep dropping as soon as I start to go to into that state. I keep wanting to go deeper than that though, but I don't know how I would keep myself from going too deeply into sleep where I don't want to bother going, other than setting the intention of going to a certain point, and keep trying. I haven't messed with that much lately. But when I used to, I had a lot of weird experiences. I would be lying there and hear all kinds of stuff going on around me in an empty room, like people's clothes rustling, and I'd shift slightly back to waking reality and wouldn't hear it, so I'd shift back and hear it again, back and forth a couple more times. Or I'd hear someone's voice speaking to me clear as day, and it would startle me fully awake, again by myself. Or I would open my eyes while half asleep and be unable to comprehend what I was seeing.

One thing that has always bothered me is how I forget most of what I dreamed once I wake, and how I would forget most of my waking life while asleep.

Visualization is very powerful, though, and it's the main interest I had when starting this website. Some people call it the "theta" brainwave state, below beta and alpha, but before delta (deep sleep). It's the meditation state. If I'm feeling tired during the day I'll lie down, and after several minutes in theta I'll feel a bit refreshed.

If you can visualize at all, especially learning to do it with your eyes open, you can identify the state of mind you need when looking at things to notice details. If you can quickly visualize at any time while looking at things, you know you've at least got part of the equation, the other part being looking for details.

[clarknight]

David,

Your describing what Robert Monroe (and Possibly Edgar Cayce) describes, can be three things;

#1; On the borderline between awake, sleep; that's where the sprit body has contact with the sprit world and Astral Projection is possible. You might feel and hear like electricity crackling in the head. Some people hear a church bell, very nice sound. A feeling of being unable to move can occur temp. but its harmless.

#2; As the mind/body drifts toward sleep but still awake; the brain processes things you did, heard, saw... during the day. Kind of a playback, sorting the data.

#3; After years of practice with out of body sprit travel Monroe developed other abilities; he could contact his inner being, all his past lives, other people/sprits in his 'kind of' root group, soul. He could hear them, communicate. I think some people can do sprit travel without closing the eyes, without going deep into relaxation. I think I remember him saying he was sitting in a chair and just 'took off'.

This power is magnetic. Whatever people do with this power comes back to them 3x strong; do good and you receive good. Monroe stated he met highly advanced humans, only a very few alive that have gained complete freedom from illness, growing old... He asked one; how do you hide this. The man said "I just changing jobs". He stays here educating people, helping the human race go forward.

Learn to create a energy ball around you that Monroe calls a Resonate Energy Balloon. Done with breathing, relaxation and moving energy from feet up the body, out the top of the head, like a fountain, then down around you, then up feet again, repeat.... as you breathe. In; pull energy up, out; energy goes down around you. Done with a resonate sound on out breath. It's on his tapes. Monroe also teaches use of a energy bar tool and other stuff.

[clarknight]

How to embed videos on forum? Is there HTML?

Palming; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DHxpRUrooQ

Does anyone remember what month issue of Better Eyesight Magazine had the true story of the man that had cataract and other eye problems, was blind or mostly blind and palmed all day, all night and was cured? A student, a blind guy has light perception and his retina has healed by Bates Method, stopping glasses and eye doctor (he had to have surgery on retina for burst blood vessel (glasses, very strong for about 30 years). Now all he needs is to get rid of the cataracts; it's black cataract. Special case. If anyone can find this article, please post it here so I may record it in audio and send to him in e-mail.

Thanks


BETTER EYESIGHT

A MONTHLY MAGAZINE DEVOTED TO THE PREVENTION AND CURE OF IMPERFECT SIGHT WITHOUT GLASSES
January, 1920

THE PALMING CURE

One of the most efficacious methods of relieving eyestrain, and hence of improving the sight, is palming. By this is meant the covering of the closed eyes with the palms of the hands in such a way as to exclude all the light, while avoiding pressure upon the eyeballs. In this way most patients are able to secure some degree of relaxation in a few minutes, and when they open their eyes find their vision temporarily improved.
When relaxation is complete the patient sees, when palming, a black so deep that it is impossible to remember or imagine anything blacker, and such relaxation is always followed by a complete and permanent cure of all errors of refraction (nearsight, farsight, astigmatism and even old sight), as well as by the relief or cure of many other abnormal conditions. In rare cases patients become able to see a perfect black very quickly, even in five, ten or fifteen minutes; but usually this cannot be done without considerable practice, and some never become able to do it until they have been cured by other means. When the patient becomes able after a few trials to see an approximate black, it is worth while to continue with the method; otherwise something else should be tried.
Most patients are helped by the memory of some color, preferably black, and as it is impossible to remember an unchanging object for more than a few seconds, they usually find it necessary to shift consciously from one mental picture to another, or from one part of such a picture to another. In some cases, however, the shifting may be done unconsciously, and the black object may appear to be remembered all alike continuously.

BETTER EYESIGHT
A MONTHLY MAGAZINE DEVOTED TO THE PREVENTION AND CURE OF IMPERFECT SIGHT WITHOUT GLASSES

JANUARY, 1930

The Imagination Cure

When the imagination is perfect the mind is always perfectly relaxed, and as it is impossible to relax and imagine a letter perfectly, and at the same time strain and see it imperfectly, it follows that when one imagines that one sees a letter perfectly one actually does see it, as demonstrated by the retinoscope, no matter how great an error of refraction the eye may previously have had. The sight, therefore, may often be improved very quickly by the aid of the imagination. To use this method the patient may proceed as follows:
Look at a letter at the distance at which it is seen best. Close and cover the eyes so as to exclude all the light, and remember it. Do this alternately until the memory is nearly equal to the sight. Next, after remembering the letter with the eyes closed and covered, and while still holding the mental picture of it, look at a blank surface a foot or more to the side of it, at the distance at which you wish to see it. Again close and cover the eyes and remember the letter, and on opening them look a little nearer to it. Gradually reduce the distance between the point of fixation and the letter, until able to look directly at it and imagine it as well as it is remembered with the eyes closed and covered. The letter will then be seen perfectly, and other letters in its neighborhood will come out. If unable to remember the whole letter, you may be able to imagine a black period as forming part of it. If you can do this, the letter will also be seen perfectly.

[clarknight]

Thanks to the guy on Chat; its in Bates book, 'Perfect Sight Without Glasses' in the Palming Chapter, near the picture of the man with glaucoma palming.

Will check the BEM's too. May be same story or similar. My student kept saying he read it in the magazines.

[shocker]

Hey guys just wanted to update this discussion.

So I was having the same problem as David, I couldn't remember my dreams so I began keeping a dream journal for a few days. My dream recall has improved quite a bit. I have issues going lucid but I have 1 exeperience that's interesting.

So I think I figured out what a swing is supposed to look like (how objects move in opposite direction, and you're supposde to notice it not induce it). So I was having a dream, noticed something weird and went lucid (meaning I was aware I was in a dream). The dream was blurry and colors were washed, so I was triyng to clear things up. In dreamviews, they suggest to just say out loud something like "increase vividness". None of that worked. Then I remembered bates and shifting/swinging. I did a long swing and tried to notice objects move. Then WHAM I literally swung into instant clarity and color. Sadly this only lasted for like 5 seconds, and I began to lose control and start floating... and then woke up.

Just thought I'd share with you guys hehe.

[clarknight]

Interesting dream. Power of your mind 'and sprit' over your dreams and vision.

Keep inducing it, maybe will carry over to when you are awake!

[Nancy]

Clark/Mary, yes indeed. My dream teacher says native cultures believed everything was dreamed before it happened in actuality. By the way, I want to point out that your signature in these posts can be read to appear that you're an ophthalmologist (instead of that Bates is). I don't think you are, not yet at least, and if not, you might want to change this just so someone doesn't accuse you of impersonating a doctor, since you've said people have attacked your website. Your choice, of course.

[clarknight]

Don't worry about it Nancy; I have a very good lawyer. Full directions, disclaimer on websites, all books, video channel. Also warn about other things (many other teachers that only want to earn a lot of money off people) don't warn about.

Check out the animated gifs on the new website!
Going to place a animation and new video on every training page, quickly show every Natural Eyesight Improvement practice so people can learn easy, fast, don't have to read, study alot.

I notice most people that ask for help are not interested in in-depth study of the method, Dr. Bates Better Eyesight Magazines. It was hard for me to understand this, I love the true life stories and hundreds of natural cures in the mags, his book, medical articles but I finally realized; the people that only want a quick cure, no interest in further study are just as passionate in their own field; politicians, architects, pilots, military people, artists, engineers, busy moms, dads, students...

So; I place the entire training and also many pictures, videos so people have a choice.

And, the magazines are more fun to read when the vision is clear.

[clarknight]

So we don't go off topic; Here's another palming article and a video by Robert Monroe;

WHAT PALMING DID FOR A BLIND MAN

(Pop, The Blind Barber)

By EMILY C. LIERMAN

I HOPE and trust that our readers will forgive me for not waiting until my dear old patient could see a little better, or until I was able to accomplish a little more for him, but in this particular case I feel very much like a child, eager to tell of the most thrilling thing that ever happened in my life.
A few months ago, some time in November, this dear old man came to our clinic, led by another man much younger. They had been told by the clerk that he could not receive treatment there because he did not live in the district. However, the nurse in charge, who is dearly loved by all the patients, did not send him away, but asked him to wait until Dr. Bates had finished with his patients and see what could be done. After our patients had been attended to, Dr. Bates had a talk with the old gentleman.
The doctor examined him and found that he had all sorts of trouble with the nerves and muscles of his eyes. Dr. Bates then called me and asked me to look at the patient's eyes and also asked me what we could do for him. There he was, absolutely with no sight whatever, but with a smile that went straight to my heart.

A Faith That Will Not Be Denied

Before I go any further I would like all who read to know that if it had been at all possible, Dr. Bates would not have hesitated for one moment, but would have offered to treat the man himself. But it could not possibly be done because Dr. Bates labors daily, Sundays included, at the rate of sixteen hours a day. These poor people, when they hear of Dr. Bates., come from all over the United States, and we do the best, the doctor included, of course, we can for them.
As the old man held his head up toward our faces waiting to hear us say that he would be able to see again, I made up my mind to make time myself to treat him at our laboratory. Every moment of my time is taken up with our work but there was my lunch hour before clinic on each Saturday that I could devote to his case. I had not the slightest idea that I could ever give him even perception of light or that I would have the intelligence to ever help him see like other people. One could see no iris whatever or pupil in either eye. Each eye had a thick, solid-looking white mass where the iris and pupil should be. But that day we arranged that he should come to see me each Saturday, and that I was to treat him for one hour. I made no promises to him, but said only that I would do all I could for him if he would do his part and carry out the treatment at home.
His age is seventy-four years, I learned, and he is an inmate of the home for the blind in Brooklyn. He said that he was first stricken with blindness in the left eye in the year 1889, and the trouble was neuralgia. In 1898 he was stricken with blindness in the right eye after suffering with chills and fever. During the year of 1898 he could see slightly with the left eye, and until 1920, when his sight gave out completely. He had been treated by noted eye specialists without success.
The first week in December he came to our laboratory, and without thinking, he said, "I am very happy to see you," and I answered very promptly, "And I am happy to see you, also." I found that he was under a terrible tension. The muscles of his arms, especially at the elbows, were so tense that I made up my mind that he would go through some sort of calisthenics with me before we started with the treatment.


Calisthenics at Seventy-four

I called him "Pop" right from the start, and he seemed to like it. Well, you should have seen the poor old fellow throw his hands over his head and try to touch the floor without bending his knees. Of course, he only got half way. Nevertheless, it was a good start. We were very serious in our exercises and to make it appear doubly so to him I went through the exercises with him, guiding him as best I could. I taught him how to palm and to swing his body from side to side as I stood before him, holding his hands, reminding him always to loosen up at the elbows. I told him that anyone could see that he was blind because he stared so much and never seemed to close his eyes, which made his condition worse. So the next thing I taught him was to open and close his eyes often, which we call blinking.
The hour was over and the next time I saw him he was a very happy man. "I have so much to tell you," he said. "The other day, as I went to the washroom I did not feel for the wash basin, but I saw it and I walked over to it. But in my happiness and excitement my vision left me. Why was that, please?" I answered, "You began to strain in your excitement and caused your blindness to return." I encouraged him by saying, "Don't worry, you will be able to see more next time when you are not straining!"
Then, to my surprise, I learned that this dear old fellow has been shaving men's faces by the sense of touch. Before he became blind he was an expert barber. He loves to repeat again and again how he shaved ex-President Taft and other notable men.
Next time he came he was even more interesting. He could not wait to tell me how young he feels now and how he loves to exercise. He gave me a demonstration of how he could touch the floor with his finger-tips without bending his knees, and he did it quite successfully. I was just in the act of praising him for the ability to do such a wonderful trick for a man seventy-four years young, when all of a sudden there was an accident … a button went flying to the opposite side of the room!
It broke off from the back of his trousers as he touched the floor with his finger-tips, and poor old "Pop" was more embarrassed than I was.

But the Treatment Goes On

However, we soon remedied the trouble and started in with our treatment. As he had no perception of light in the beginning I was quite thrilled when he pointed to both windows of our room and showed me just where the curtains were fastened. I placed him in another part of the room and I was thrilled again when he pointed with his fingers to a sunbeam shining on the rug. With this progress to encourage me, I now am striving with him to give him his greatest desire—his real eyesight. I cannot understand as yet just how he does see, but I do notice that the white mass in front of the iris is not quite as thick as formerly. The last time I saw him he told me that while he was shaving a man he suddenly saw the man's face and that he also saw another man walking past him who had entered the room quietly. He also told me that the matron of the home had entered his room and as she passed out, he asked the maid if the matron had on a blueish-gray gown, and the maid, knowing that he was blind, was surprised, as she answered, "Yes, it is a blueish-gray color, your sight must be coming back."
What my poor old "Pop" says now that he is most anxious about is that he may have the pleasure of seeing my face some day. There is a great deal of refinement about my dear old "Pop" and I am always anxious for the hour on Saturday to come to be with him and help him. But, of course, I merely tell him that he must not hope too seriously to see my face for it might make him blind again!
Perhaps some day I will report some further progress made in restoring of this dear old man's eyesight.

http://cleareyesight-batesmethod.info/na.../id44.html

Robert; http://www.monroeinstitute.org/resources...bob-monroe