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Quackwatch

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Quackwatch
#1
http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/bates.html
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#2
this bates stuff is quackery. When i first noticed my vision going down, the first solutions i found were online "bates", "eye yoga", "eye habits", "emotional-metaphysical nonsense (like i don't want to see)".

Obviously the stuff above does not address the REAL reason my vision is going down (because i'm a student who needs to do near work at 30-50cm for 12hours+ a day). This Plus gets rid of the near.

I wasted 6 months "trying bates" (which does nothing since i can't stop doing near work). Finally i stumbled upon the REAL solution using the PLUS lens on a website somewhere. The bates stuff was all clutter that hides the REAL solution.
Reply
#3
Agreed. Bates method yielded no results for me except for some clear flashes. It's really sad to see that people who are interested in vision improvement have to get through all the Bates stuff first before usually finding the right answer which is active focusing with or without a plus lens. I practicesed Bates and other methods like muscle exercises for about a year and had no results except for a fast improvement in the first 3 weeks. But since I started using the plus and practising print pushing I could improve my edge of blur by several cms.
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#4
Well i would have to change what i said. Bates method isn't "completely" quackery. some of his ideas like shifting, relaxation, long swings, central fixation promote active focus. Bates got the wrong idea close work does no harm and didn't connect all his ideas together.
Reply
#5
I especially liked the information about Bates deceptive use of the retina-scope
There is a poster here that praises his use of it.
Reply
#6
I wrote a response to that article years ago.

Some posting in this section is fine, but you're posting so much you're taking things over to the point where people who are interested in the Bates method are afraid to post, especially now that you've formed a gang ready to jump on anyone who does so.

The point of the Skeptics forum is to be a place to move off-track threads to or as a place for the occasional new doubtful poster to ask constructive questions, not to provide a long-term audience for anyone who has an agenda that doesn't align with the purpose of this site. When someone keeps at it, as you are, it's time to move on.

So that's it, no more. I'm not going to argue about it.
Site Administrator

"Half of our funny, heathen lives, we are bent double to gather things we have tossed away." - George Meredith
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#7
hey david where can i read your response to the article?
Reply
#8
(01-08-2015, 10:20 AM)Aethersky Wrote: hey david where can i read your response to the article?

I found my old copy. I went over it again with edits and put it online:

http://www.iblindness.org/2381/a-respons...es-system/
Site Administrator

"Half of our funny, heathen lives, we are bent double to gather things we have tossed away." - George Meredith
Reply
#9
(01-08-2015, 08:01 PM)David Wrote:
(01-08-2015, 10:20 AM)Aethersky Wrote: hey david where can i read your response to the article?

I found my old copy. I went over it again with edits and put it online:

http://www.iblindness.org/2381/a-respons...es-system/

I only had time to scan it over,but you said that Bates had discovered Adrenaline.
That is not correct. He did however discover a use for it in eye surgery in 1896,two years after its discovery by, http://hardluckasthma.blogspot.com/2012/...icine.html
Reply
#10
Quote:"this bates stuff is quackery"
These people would not agree with that : Meir Schneider, Leo angart, Evgania Mehler. I have saw these people on the television shows, and they already restored their vision from very high dioptre, no doubts about that. Meir was even blind.

Most people cant do the same, thats the real issue :). I was one of these guys, I lost huge amounts of my time and money on ebooks/workshops but nothing helped me. At one point I stoped doing all of that crap because I WANTED RESULTS, NOT ILLUSIONS OF IT. After so many years I learned on my mistakes and I succeeded. Because of that I can really see why most people fail with their eyesight improvement (because they are doing mine mistakes from the past and I can relate to that). Right now I have no doubts about Bates method, Bates was correct (you cant see only because your eye mucle cant relax), but his method was also incomplete. There's a reason why eye muscle gets tensed in the first place and it's not all about mind strain as Bates find out.

For example most people do some palming and can see clear flashes. Problem is, they think it's already some sign of improvement, but it's not. That's because clear flashes alone are just like a spark in car engine ignition, in the end it's only long lasting car engine ignition that matters, that's the real exercise. That car analogy is good, because this is how vision improves, not by seeing just clear flashes (sparks), but by seeing long lasting vision improvement (car engine need to start) right after that spark. Compare few quick clear flashes with constant vision improvement during 30 minutes or 2 hour time period, cant you see the difference ? And with every new "ignition" that period of improvement gets extended and it will also push average vision quality up everytime it will end. So vision improvement happens the same day, just after your exercise (not after week, month, or year later). The only thing is, that improvement need to heal, and during that time you will feel gentle heat around your eyes, because eye mucles improves the same like every other muscles in your body, during inflammation process (during that time I drink lots of water with vitamin C). When vision improvement will heal, you repeat the process and add another improvement over previous one. Basically you do something, and you should see positive results because of that action. If you cant see any improvement after your exercises/work, you will most likely waste your time, because your eyesight will not improve magically (tomorrow, or year later). It's sad, but most people who read about Bates end up like that. But people who restored their vision, like Evgania Mehler, Paul Anderson, Jane Kabarguina even mentioned this kind of information in their books, people just dont pay attention to that. These people wrote clearly, that clear flashes started merging into longer and longer periods of time, and thats it's all about.

In order to see that long lasting period of vision improvement like that, your whole body needs to support your eyesight and provide proper energy and relaxation (it's like fuel) to your eye muscles. The thing is, eyesight is not separate part in our bodies, you cant relax only your eye muscles and forget about the rest. Muscles in the neck, like for example suboccipotals have direct influance on your eye muscles (you cant move one without another). When I started working on my body inbalances I could see, that everytime I forced eye relaxation (I have some extreme ways to do that :D) literaly my neck muscles started puling my enitre superficial back line during that time, I worked with my eyes, but even my muscles in leg responed, this is how serious it is. It also works the other way around, when you relax neck muscles, eye muscle will relax itself, you dont need palming for that.

Unfortunately most people treat eyes like separate part of our body, that's the only reason why they cant see any results. Later on sceptics start blaming Bates for their lack of results because they cant understant why they failed in the first place :)
Reply
#11
(01-09-2015, 12:16 AM)Bifocal Wrote:
(01-08-2015, 08:01 PM)David Wrote:
(01-08-2015, 10:20 AM)Aethersky Wrote: hey david where can i read your response to the article?

I found my old copy. I went over it again with edits and put it online:

http://www.iblindness.org/2381/a-respons...es-system/

I only had time to scan it over,but you said that Bates had discovered Adrenaline.
That is not correct. He did however discover a use for it in eye surgery in 1896,two years after its discovery by, http://hardluckasthma.blogspot.com/2012/...icine.html

Thanks, fixed!
Site Administrator

"Half of our funny, heathen lives, we are bent double to gather things we have tossed away." - George Meredith
Reply
#12
(01-09-2015, 09:50 AM)David Wrote:
(01-09-2015, 12:16 AM)Bifocal Wrote:
(01-08-2015, 08:01 PM)David Wrote:
(01-08-2015, 10:20 AM)Aethersky Wrote: hey david where can i read your response to the article?

I found my old copy. I went over it again with edits and put it online:

http://www.iblindness.org/2381/a-respons...es-system/

I only had time to scan it over,but you said that Bates had discovered Adrenaline.
That is not correct. He did however discover a use for it in eye surgery in 1896,two years after its discovery by, http://hardluckasthma.blogspot.com/2012/...icine.html

Thanks, fixed!

Looking further you also stated the following about Bates, " He invented and performed astigmatic keratotomy, an operation that modern refractive surgery has its roots in. " That also is incorrect.That medical procedure was developed in 1885,and nine years later Bates ONLY postulated on it. http://oculist.net/downaton502/prof/eboo...6c042.html

(01-09-2015, 04:53 AM)Paul888 Wrote:
Quote:"this bates stuff is quackery"
These people would not agree with that : Meir Schneider, Leo angart, Evgania Mehler. I have saw these people on the television shows, and they already restored their vision from very high dioptre, no doubts about that. Meir was even blind.

Most people cant do the same, thats the real issue Smile. I was one of these guys, I lost huge amounts of my time and money on ebooks/workshops but nothing helped me. At one point I stoped doing all of that crap because I WANTED RESULTS, NOT ILLUSIONS OF IT. After so many years I learned on my mistakes and I succeeded. Because of that I can really see why most people fail with their eyesight improvement (because they are doing mine mistakes from the past and I can relate to that). Right now I have no doubts about Bates method, Bates was correct (you cant see only because your eye mucle cant relax), but his method was also incomplete. There's a reason why eye muscle gets tensed in the first place and it's not all about mind strain as Bates find out.

For example most people do some palming and can see clear flashes. Problem is, they think it's already some sign of improvement, but it's not. That's because clear flashes alone are just like a spark in car engine ignition, in the end it's only long lasting car engine ignition that matters, that's the real exercise. That car analogy is good, because this is how vision improves, not by seeing just clear flashes (sparks), but by seeing long lasting vision improvement (car engine need to start) right after that spark. Compare few quick clear flashes with constant vision improvement during 30 minutes or 2 hour time period, cant you see the difference ? And with every new "ignition" that period of improvement gets extended and it will also push average vision quality up everytime it will end. So vision improvement happens the same day, just after your exercise (not after week, month, or year later). The only thing is, that improvement need to heal, and during that time you will feel gentle heat around your eyes, because eye mucles improves the same like every other muscles in your body, during inflammation process (during that time I drink lots of water with vitamin C). When vision improvement will heal, you repeat the process and add another improvement over previous one. Basically you do something, and you should see positive results because of that action. If you cant see any improvement after your exercises/work, you will most likely waste your time, because your eyesight will not improve magically (tomorrow, or year later). It's sad, but most people who read about Bates end up like that. But people who restored their vision, like Evgania Mehler, Paul Anderson, Jane Kabarguina even mentioned this kind of information in their books, people just dont pay attention to that. These people wrote clearly, that clear flashes started merging into longer and longer periods of time, and thats it's all about.

In order to see that long lasting period of vision improvement like that, your whole body needs to support your eyesight and provide proper energy and relaxation (it's like fuel) to your eye muscles. The thing is, eyesight is not separate part in our bodies, you cant relax only your eye muscles and forget about the rest. Muscles in the neck, like for example suboccipotals have direct influance on your eye muscles (you cant move one without another). When I started working on my body inbalances I could see, that everytime I forced eye relaxation (I have some extreme ways to do that Big Grin) literaly my neck muscles started puling my enitre superficial back line during that time, I worked with my eyes, but even my muscles in leg responed, this is how serious it is. It also works the other way around, when you relax neck muscles, eye muscle will relax itself, you dont need palming for that.

Unfortunately most people treat eyes like separate part of our body, that's the only reason why they cant see any results. Later on sceptics start blaming Bates for their lack of results because they cant understant why they failed in the first place Smile

How does all of the engine ignition ,and total body muscle theory then shorten an elongated myopic eye,or lengthen a short hyperopic eye ?
Reply
#13
Hey paul888. May i ask how much your vision has improved?

is it still -8D sph and -4D astigmatism? Its rather sad to read about someone who has high myopia. At your level of myopia you don't need "plus lenses". Simply by wearing a reduced prescription or taking off your glasses for all close work. your "edge of blur" is close, thus giving you room to improve.

However i have 20/20 vision in bright light (slightly worse in poor lighting), so i need a "plus lens" to move the edge of blur focus in order to challenge my eyes.

The whole point of plus lenses isnt that a "plus" will cancel the "minus prescription". For vision to improve, one must actively read or try to focus at the edge of blur. This is essentially what you are doing. That is why your vision improved, not really do to the eye habit changes or relaxation.
Reply
#14
Regarding astigmatic keratotomy, Bates published an article describing the operations he did. Attached.

It looks like someone may have done it before him, but another article also credits Bates for it. It's not as old so is still copyrighted, so I probably shouldn't post it.

"William H Bates: The founder of astigmatic keratotomy and psycho-ophthalmology"


Attached Files
.pdf   Bates - a suggestion of an operation to correct astigmatism.pdf (Size: 251.49 KB / Downloads: 7)
Site Administrator

"Half of our funny, heathen lives, we are bent double to gather things we have tossed away." - George Meredith
Reply
#15
Quote:is it still -8D sph and -4D astigmatism?
When I was young I had just -0.5 :), but yes, my last glasses prescription was -8D sphere and 4 cyl astigmatism, that lenses was so thick that I almost cried everytime I seen my face in the mirror with that glasses. and whats worse I started already seeing bad in them. But this is history, right now if I use -4D sphere without any astigmatism correction I can already see better than in this thick -8D glasses in the first place. It's still long way to go for 20/16 vision, but for me it's huge improvement and I'm happy with that. Most of the time (and because of my work) I need to wear -3D glasses in order to give my eyes room for improveent and during vacations or holidays I even take my glasses off. With my nice fluctuations I will always see something if it's out in the distance. For example, if take my glasses off and look at the car plate in the distance, I may not see it clearly within first second, but as I'm trying to look for smallest details possible on that car plate and relax my mind more, fluctuations will speed up, and my eyes will always focus on that car plate, it's only a matter of time, it's like time delay. If I persist with that exercise (it's hard to call it exercise, you just look at the distance) my eyes starts focusing faster and faster each time, until period of vision improvement will kick in, when that happen I can see very good for quite extended period of time.

Quote:However i have 20/20 vision in bright light (slightly worse in poor lighting), so i need a "plus lens" to move the edge of blur focus in order to challenge my eyes.

When I started wearing glasses without astigmatism correction I was almost blind during bad lighting conditions. You need to work with your body muscle imbalances until you will see nice vision fluctuations, it will be a sign, that your other body muscles no longer strain your eye muscles. Fluctuations are different compared to clear flashes, because fluctuations are constant change in your average vision quality. Each second your vision will be different, because when your eye muscles are relaxed and not strained anymore your eyes will try to focus on everything in order to rebuild their strength (even in bad lighting conditions, so your exercise would be to look at something during bad lighting conditions, and let your eyes build up). Without fluctuations its hard to build eye muscle strength, because average vision quality will be frozen (except for few quick flashes during the day), but with fluctuations eyes will always try to focus, if you cant see something clearly in the distance, that alone is great exercise.

Well, fixing your spine and muscle imbalances takes time, but if you want you can use Mirzakarim Norbekov fast but very artificial way of inducing these fluctuations (also Paul Anderson described "Bates" way of doing that in his book). That way you will see how these fluctuations looks like. But as a reminder, if you will feel pain in eye muscles when these fluctuations will end, or next day, just stop what you are doing. That pain happens, beacuse your eye muscles are stretching, but at the same time they will be also pulled by other contracted mucles in your body to their previous state, and your eyes will tire from this "wrestling". Paul Anderson wrote in his book, that this pain is a good thing, but I not belive that. I think that pain is always informing us, that something that we are doing is not good with our body, and we should stop that. If your eye mucles are tired to the point you even cant open your eyes, it's a bad sign, no one will tell me it's a good thing. I did Paul Anderson and Norbekov exercises years ago, I could see fluctuations thanks to their exercises (exactly as they described) but I'm telling you man, that pain was so HUGE, that most people would want to take painkillers. That's why the best way to see this fluctuations is fixing your skeletal muscles in the first place, without muscle strains in your body eyes can relax naturally without any exercise (it's shortcut, but artificial induction), and also without any muscle pain. The only thing that you can and SHOULD feel after your exercise is gentle heat around your eyes. That heat it's inflammation process in it's way, during imflammation your body can heal microtears in stretched muscles, but this inflammation is never painful.

Quote: not really do to the eye habit changes or relaxation.
Before I tried almost every good vision habit that exists, but my vision was strained no matter what I've done, and if I walked without glasses my vision was quickly tired. Bates belived, that people with bad vision are "straining to see" (and that strain is mostly in the mind), but after I fixed my whole body and restored proper energy supply to my eyes, I could no longer tire my eyes anymore.
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