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no success with bates method for my kids
#1
Hi,

Little background...

(July 2015)
My elder son is 10 his number is (using glasses for the past 4 yrs)
sph cyl Axis VA
rt +1.5 -3.0 180 6/6

left +.75 -1.75 180 6/6


My younger son is 6 his number is
sph cyl Axis VA
rt -2.5 -2.0 10 6/24

left -2.25 -2.25 145 6/12
(was advised alternate eye patching for 5 hrs)


I have been doing sunning-palming-ball game-reading fine print-reading chart- swing with them from past 2 months

Todays result

10 years old - same

6 years old (with bates method and 5 hrs alternate eye patching)

sph cyl Axis VA
rt -4.0 -3.0 20 6/12

left -2.5 -2.0 145 6/12

laziness decreased but number has increased.

Please guide me what to do...little disheartened as was expecting better results.

Thanks and Regards
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#2
I came back from -4 and -4.5 in my right and left eyes respectivelly and 21 months later I tested at -1.25 and I haven't plateaued yet as my 22nd month is by the end of October.(I get tested every month) I hardly have any posts, so it shouldn't take long to read my posts as to what I did.

Think of principles, not methods. 90% of the time, being outside with access to extreme distances without a system is better than any system indoors.

The alternate eyepatching is insanity, especially for 5 hours at a time.

Avoid eyepatches and distance glasses for a long long time.

Your child with the worse vision will benefit more from a lot of time outside without wearing glasses. Your child with better vision might be better off with plus lenses now, as normally people who have been doing Bates for awhile end up at -.75 to -1.0 after starting from worse than that.
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#3
(10-20-2015, 06:22 AM)sleepmaster Wrote: I came back from -4 and -4.5 in my right and left eyes respectivelly and 21 months later I tested at -1.25 and I haven't plateaued yet as my 22nd month is by the end of October.(I get tested every month) I hardly have any posts, so it shouldn't take long to read my posts as to what I did.

Think of principles, not methods. 90% of the time, being outside with access to extreme distances without a system is better than any system indoors.

The alternate eyepatching is insanity, especially for 5 hours at a time.

Avoid eyepatches and distance glasses for a long long time.

Your child with the worse vision will benefit more from a lot of time outside without wearing glasses. Your child with better vision might be better off with plus lenses now, as normally people who have been doing Bates for awhile end up at -.75 to -1.0 after starting from worse than that.

Thanks sleepmaster for the reply....

My kids loves being outside...but on the advice of the doc I kept them doing the near sight activities with patching after they are from school...

My son with better vision went from -2 to -3 cyl since I stared bates method. In March 2015 I started with only palming and messaging. He went from -2 to -3. Then in July, 2015, I learned bates method and made them do these exercises then he is still on -3.

Need to regain the faith in this system...

Thanks and Regards...
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#4
Your doc is giving you terrible advice. Eyepatches up close for that long is a double-whammy, no wait, after 7-8 hours of ciliary strain at school, that's a triple-whammy.

Sorry to hear that your kids went through this.

Since you mention Bates, one thing Bates mentioned is that kids who play outdoor sports with a ball tend to have better vision. I think organized outdoor soccer on those full-sized fiields is the best sport for improving vision. Just have both play in soccer leagues without wearing any glasses. Do that and see what happens.

One other thing, whenever you drive your kids around, your son with the worse vision gets the middle back seat, and your other son gets the right front passenger seat. Both of them without wearing glasses of course. Others with 20/20 vision can sit in the other seats.
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#5
(10-20-2015, 07:15 AM)stressedmom Wrote:
(10-20-2015, 06:22 AM)sleepmaster Wrote: I came back from -4 and -4.5 in my right and left eyes respectivelly and 21 months later I tested at -1.25 and I haven't plateaued yet as my 22nd month is by the end of October.(I get tested every month) I hardly have any posts, so it shouldn't take long to read my posts as to what I did.

Think of principles, not methods. 90% of the time, being outside with access to extreme distances without a system is better than any system indoors.

The alternate eyepatching is insanity, especially for 5 hours at a time.

Avoid eyepatches and distance glasses for a long long time.

Your child with the worse vision will benefit more from a lot of time outside without wearing glasses. Your child with better vision might be better off with plus lenses now, as normally people who have been doing Bates for awhile end up at -.75 to -1.0 after starting from worse than that.

Thanks sleepmaster for the reply....

My kids loves being outside...but on the advice of the doc I kept them doing the near sight activities with patching after they are from school...

My son with better vision went from -2 to -3 cyl since I stared bates method. In March 2015 I started with only palming and messaging. He went from -2 to -3. Then in July, 2015, I learned bates method and made them do these exercises then he is still on -3.

Need to regain the faith in this system...

Thanks and Regards...

Hi, a couple questions - why is mom so stressed, stressedmom? How is your own vision ? Have you improved it through learning the Bates techniques? You may want to find a Bates teacher that you could take your children to, that they can learn directly from someone who really understands the methods and can demonstrate to them things that don't get across well on the internet/forums. You also have to be very careful who you are taking advice from on these forums, as there have been many who hide their identities, and have different agendas and try to promote things that go against the principles this site has tried to maintain for many years. Many have tried to promote plus lenses, which is not in any way part of Bates, yet they continue to try to promote it and have disregard and disrespect for what this site is about.
Have you read much of the Bates magazines - there are many stories of children, treated by Bates, or his wife Emily. Aside from the techniques, they always looked at the environment, what may be the cause of worry, anxiety, fear, whether they be at school, home, or elsewhere. As adults our own behavior can have a very large impact on how our children feel, view their world, and how they handle whatever is going on in their lives. If you are stressed, they are stressed, if you worry, they worry...etc. The Bates method is so much more than about how much time you spend indoors, or outdoors, in the sun, or in a classroom. It's about the whole person, and children are especially susceptible to things that cause mental worry, anxiety, stress, fear, nervousness - all of which can impact vision. The techniques that you have introduced to them are great at working with the symptoms, yet the root causes may go unnoticed, not examined, and visual strain can persist, or worsen.
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#6
(10-20-2015, 07:03 PM)arocarty Wrote:
(10-20-2015, 07:15 AM)stressedmom Wrote:
(10-20-2015, 06:22 AM)sleepmaster Wrote: I came back from -4 and -4.5 in my right and left eyes respectivelly and 21 months later I tested at -1.25 and I haven't plateaued yet as my 22nd month is by the end of October.(I get tested every month) I hardly have any posts, so it shouldn't take long to read my posts as to what I did.

Think of principles, not methods. 90% of the time, being outside with access to extreme distances without a system is better than any system indoors.

The alternate eyepatching is insanity, especially for 5 hours at a time.

Avoid eyepatches and distance glasses for a long long time.

Your child with the worse vision will benefit more from a lot of time outside without wearing glasses. Your child with better vision might be better off with plus lenses now, as normally people who have been doing Bates for awhile end up at -.75 to -1.0 after starting from worse than that.

Thanks sleepmaster for the reply....

My kids loves being outside...but on the advice of the doc I kept them doing the near sight activities with patching after they are from school...

My son with better vision went from -2 to -3 cyl since I stared bates method. In March 2015 I started with only palming and messaging. He went from -2 to -3. Then in July, 2015, I learned bates method and made them do these exercises then he is still on -3.

Need to regain the faith in this system...

Thanks and Regards...

Hi, a couple questions - why is mom so stressed, stressedmom? How is your own vision ? Have you improved it through learning the Bates techniques? You may want to find a Bates teacher that you could take your children to, that they can learn directly from someone who really understands the methods and can demonstrate to them things that don't get across well on the internet/forums. You also have to be very careful who you are taking advice from on these forums, as there have been many who hide their identities, and have different agendas and try to promote things that go against the principles this site has tried to maintain for many years. Many have tried to promote plus lenses, which is not in any way part of Bates, yet they continue to try to promote it and have disregard and disrespect for what this site is about.
Have you read much of the Bates magazines - there are many stories of children, treated by Bates, or his wife Emily. Aside from the techniques, they always looked at the environment, what may be the cause of worry, anxiety, fear, whether they be at school, home, or elsewhere. As adults our own behavior can have a very large impact on how our children feel, view their world, and how they handle whatever is going on in their lives. If you are stressed, they are stressed, if you worry, they worry...etc. The Bates method is so much more than about how much time you spend indoors, or outdoors, in the sun, or in a classroom. It's about the whole person, and children are especially susceptible to things that cause mental worry, anxiety, stress, fear, nervousness - all of which can impact vision. The techniques that you have introduced to them are great at working with the symptoms, yet the root causes may go unnoticed, not examined, and visual strain can persist, or worsen.

Hi Arocarity...I myself did learn and have seen amazing result on myself...was 6/9 in rt and 6/12 in left. Now I'm 6/6 in both eyes.There was a little girl with -1.25 cyl...to our surprise she was restored in 4 days.

I have read lot of bates material on net...especially loved 'Stories from the clinic' where they'd worked with school kids.

I agree with you, may be my anxiety is not letting my kids improve their vision.

Regards
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#7
Quote:You may want to find a Bates teacher that you could take your children to, that they can learn directly from someone who really understands the methods and can demonstrate to them things that don't get across well on the internet/forums. You also have to be very careful who you are taking advice from on these forums, as there have been many who hide their identities, and have different agendas and try to promote things that go against the principles this site has tried to maintain for many years. Many have tried to promote plus lenses, which is not in any way part of Bates, yet they continue to try to promote it and have disregard and disrespect for what this site is about.

Are you referring to me or not?[/quote]
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#8
To the thread starter, make sure your kids never wear distance glasses when looking up close, like schoolwork reading, computer, cell phone, etc. Make sure they're not doing that when they are away from you at school. That is the main thing that turns mildly poor vision into very poor vision. I went from perfect vision in fourth grade to -1.25,1-50 in right and left eyes respectively a year later. In fourth grade I stopped playing outdoor soccer and starting drawing cartoon characters with my eyes too close to the paper. In those days they didn't know anything, so I was prescribed -2.75,-3.0 glasses for my -1.25,-1.50 eyes so that my eyes would "grow into them". The glasses were so strong I didn't wear them, nevertheless, I dropped another half a diopter into the end of eighth grade from still drawing too cllose to the paper. Somehow -1.75,-2 eyes lead to me getting prescribed a new pair of -3.75,-4.0 glasses. Unfortunately I started wearing the damn things all the time, up close and for distance, and I went from -2 to -3 by the end of high school. It's very important to avoid glasses up close. It's better to avoid them period, but up close is the worst. That makes all vision improvement methods a waste of time.
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#9
(10-23-2015, 06:08 AM)sleepmaster Wrote: ... It's better to avoid them period, but up close is the worst. That makes all vision improvement methods a waste of time.

Nothing necessarily makes something a waste of time, as long as one is persistently trying to learn and practice correct eye habits and methods of relaxation. Sure it might delay improvement, but so can overly straining at near because one cannot see anything adequately or is using the eyes improperly. Bates methods teach people how to relax and use the eyes at both near, and far. None of us can be judge what is a wast of their time, everyone is different, and has to judge on their own what constitutes a waste of their time.
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#10
(10-21-2015, 11:09 AM)sleepmaster Wrote:
Quote:You may want to find a Bates teacher that you could take your children to, that they can learn directly from someone who really understands the methods and can demonstrate to them things that don't get across well on the internet/forums. You also have to be very careful who you are taking advice from on these forums, as there have been many who hide their identities, and have different agendas and try to promote things that go against the principles this site has tried to maintain for many years. Many have tried to promote plus lenses, which is not in any way part of Bates, yet they continue to try to promote it and have disregard and disrespect for what this site is about.

Are you referring to me or not?
[/quote]

to anyone who tries to promote plus lenses, the theories upon which it is based, and advises usage directly or indirectly to children, teens, or adults as a means of vision improvement or prevention of myopia. That's not what this site is about, and contradicts the principles upon which the methods promoted here are based. This causes unnecessary confusion and incertitude to people trying to learn the Bates method and related disciplines, and David's interpretation of central fixation. You obviously disagree with many of the principles upon which this site is based, and are not here to learn the methods promoted on this site and support others who are also here for that. If someone disagrees with what this site is about, or main principles upon which it is based, nobody is stopping them from going elsewhere, as there are surely other sites which promote the plus lenses theories. Or creating ones own site where they can be king and lord over their own vision methodology. It makes no sense to promote or defend it in any way here, as that is clearly not what this site is about, causes confusion to newcomers or others who know no better or who are trying to earnestly learn the methods of this site. Anyone can do or practice what they want, but there is a right place for everything.

My apologies for the interruption to this thread.
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#11
That's one hell of a strawman post.
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#12
(10-24-2015, 06:36 AM)sleepmaster Wrote: That's one hell of a strawman post.

If by this you deny that you are accountable for recommending plus lenses to anyone, it goes to show your disregard for what this site is about. One doesn't have to look too far - earlier in this very thread you suggest that 'you child with better vision would be better with a plus..' Stop suggesting plus lens usage here, whether it be for mild, moderate, or high myopia. That is not Bates, and is not what this site is about, and conflicts with the basic principles on which it is based. You are well aware of that, yet to continue to broadcast your own usage, and suggest others to do so, basing your idea on conventional ciliary strain or close strain. If you cannot respect what this site is about, nobody is stopping you from going elsewhere.
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#13
I don't think recommending that a -.75,-1.5 kid should take up outdoor soccer and then use plus lenses(consistent with what I've said in the past about using natural methods first to see what you can get from them, as I think I've shown that here I'm second to no one in the use of non-plus lens methods to improve vision...I myself dropped from the -4s to -3 even in a month and a half without plus lenses and even now continue with non-plus lens ways to improve my vision), is against the spirit of what this site is about. If not for the plus lens crowd that came over to this board in the past and got a little crazy, it wouldn't be an issue you are so hypersensitive over. If I'm wrong about all that, the site owner is free to let me know. In the meantime, pipe down. You may have once been a defensive terror on the basketball court, but the way you nip at my heels makes you look weak. I invite anyone to compare our entire post histories to see for themselves whose motives are more pure. You seem to feel insecure around me even when I'm talking about natural methods, like when you were hinting that I was rushing someone to improve their vision or whatever. And you will know my real name soon enough. I've posted my first and last name on yelp reviews so I have no problem doing that here when the time is right.
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#14
Well, when I was a little kid I spent tons of time outdoors running around. We had no TV until I was about 9, and I didn't usually wear my glasses. And my myopia did not get any better.

There was that study a while back, reported on CBS, Reuters, NBC, etc, showing that kids who spent more time outdoors were about 9% less likely to develop myopia, but it didn't suggest anything about those who already had myopia. It looks like that 9% is significant with the sample size, but 9% is still a pretty small figure that is missing the bigger picture. The reason it got so much attention is mainstream eye care is so far off in their understanding of what causes good and bad vision that when a measly 9% difference is noted it's like the world shifted.

In my elementary school the rate of myopia was closer to 1%. It was rare that you saw anyone with glasses. In junior high and high school it went up a little, but still nowhere near the insane 30% number they're giving now. Sometimes kids' vision was a little blurry, but it was rarely an issue. I only ever had one friend who wore glasses all the time.

Janet Goodrich wrote that book about working with kids, and she seemed really into doing that. If I remember right, a lot of it was games meant to change kids' attitude towards seeing. And I think that has to be the right approach for kids who aren't old enough to really take charge of their own health. And heck, I think her book Natural Vision Improvement, geared more towards adults, was much the same way, lots of games and suggestions on attitude and perspective. I gave away all my books years ago to friends and dumped a couple boxes full into a donation bin, but maybe I should get her books again to check them out. Years ago when I started I read her books and her approach sounded a little too playful to me, but maybe that was the problem! Sometimes what we need looks like it doesn't make sense, because if we could embrace it easily then we would already have been doing it and there would be nothing to learn.

I don't moderate posts very often unless someone keeps really steering things off course. People can pretty much post what they want to. Or more accurately, I want people to generally feel free to post whatever they want to. Sometimes good ideas come from weird places. There isn't enough traffic on here for me to start filtering things out. So everyone just needs to understand that they will have to compete on ideas by presenting their own views in an appealing way. Arguing against someone else's just brings more attention to that person's ideas.
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