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Hello friends

i have some eyes problems for 5 years now.
i have astigmatism my eyeballs are under pressure, i think that the sleep problems add more to my eyes problems so i think good sleep would decrease the tension in the eyes, but i am still not close enough to good healty sleep.

so my question is what else do you propose to do exept palming and eye exercises to relax the eyes?

palming sometimes have some side effects - five minutes it is calm and painless but after these five minutes i see yellow colours in the black void (i know that is from the strain) and pain shows up again.

I thought that if i could stay plaming for some hours nonstop, every tension wolud go away... but i am not too sure
what do you suggest?
Dear waserbund,

Thank you for joining the forum, it's great to have you here... and the more the merrier!

Quote:i think that the sleep problems add more to my eyes problems so i think good sleep would decrease the tension in the eyes, but i am still not close enough to good healty sleep.

Read this, it should help a lot:


Eye Strain When Sleeping

By W. H. Bates, M. D.

MANY persons strain their eyes when sleeping. When they awake in the morning, they feel pain in their eyes with imperfect sight and often with severe headache. They may feel all tired out, not refreshed or rested by a sleep of eight hours or longer. In some cases the sleep may not have been disturbed by dreams. Dreams are not always remembered for any great length of time. There are people who can recall dreams in their early childhood twenty, thirty, forty years ago, but their recent dreams cannot be remembered longer than a few minutes or a few hours after awakening. To keep accurate records of dreams requires that they be recorded as soon as possible. Pleasant dreams do not always mean relaxation, but dreams of snakes, nightmares, fighting, crimes and horrible experiences of all sorts are usually followed by imperfect sight caused by eye strain.

Some of my patients with a severe trouble of the eyes have told me some very awful dreams. During sleep the ticking of a clock or the outside noises in the street may be the starting point of a very exciting, disagreeable or uncomfortable dream which is due to strain.

I am tempted to relate my personal experiences in dreams. Recently I awakened in the morning with a feeling that I had been dreaming. I got into a fight with a drunken man and had soaked the bedpost with my fist with disastrous results to the skin of my knuckles. Afterwards I noticed that the white tiled floor instead of being white the blocks were alternately pink and blue and this illusion continued for a half hour when it gradually disappeared. On another occasion, I awakened after a dreamless sleep and noticed that the ceiling was covered with a very white cloud similar to a veil. This illusion disappeared in five or ten minutes.

Many patients ask: "Why do I have so much pain, discomfort, imperfect sight in the morning after a good sleep?"

My answer is: "Because you strain your eyes and all the nerves of your body when you are asleep."

But for me to explain the facts further is something I cannot do. All I know is the fact that it is so. New born babies, half an hour after birth and later, by simultaneous retinoscopy produce a deformation of the eyeball, nearsightedness (myopia), farsightedness (hypermetropia), astigmatism of variable degree, at short intervals of a few hours. At one time, myopia will be found of the same amount in each eye; or one eye may be normal while the other eye may be myopic. At the second examination, both eyes may be normal, hypermetropic, or with any form of astigmatism. The child may produce any combination of errors of refraction by eye strain when asleep which may persist for a longer or shorter period when awake. At times the eyes become normal when the child is awake. Squint or strabismus in its various forms always occurs and is also variable. The use of strong atropine, 3 ½ per cent., instilled into both eyes does not prevent the manifestations of eye strain in new born children when asleep.

In adults, simultaneous retinoscopy demonstrates the production of near-sightedness and other deformations of the eyeball by eye strain during sleep but which usually become less or disappear and the eyes resume their normal shape in a few hours after awakening. Just as in babies atropine does not prevent, during sleep, the results of eye strain.

Hypnotism, ether, chloroform and nitrous oxide gas are all accompanied by well marked eye strain during sleep produced by these agents.

Eye strain during sleep may produce in the normal eye severe pain with hardness of the eyeball simulating the increased tension of an attack of glaucoma. In all diseases of the eyes, inflammations of the eyelids, cornea, iris, lens (cataract) retina and optic nerve eye strain during sleep increases the severity of the symptoms with a corresponding loss of vision, temporary or more permanent. Detachment of the retina has been aggravated or produced by eye strain during sleep.

The results of eye strain during sleep are so disastrous that I believe proper treatment is essential. Some patients have been benefited by "Palming" for half an hour or longer before dropping of to sleep. "Go to sleep while palming. Palm if you wake up during the night. Practice the long or short 'Swing' before retiring," I advise.

Some people seem to sleep longer than is necessary and the eye strain may appear increased. Some observations made of a four hour period of sleep during the night with or without a nap in the day time seemed to show less eye strain.

Posture during sleep has been studied. Lying on the face has generally been accompanied by an increase of eye strain. Sleeping on the back with the arms and limbs extended with slight flexion is undoubtedly better than sleeping on the right or left side. A cramped posture is always wrong. The patient is not always conscious of his posture when asleep. In a number of cases observed by friends of the patient, one or both arms were held behind the head while asleep and strenuously denied by the patient when awake.

The correction of this and other strained positions of the arms and limbs has been followed by decided benefit to the vision.

Eye strain during sleep produces or increases the symptoms of strain in various parts of the body. Some months ago I suffered from an attack of the grippe and had a very strong cough without expectoration. This cough was spasmodic and did not bother me very much during the day and when it did it was very easy for me to obtain sufficient relaxation to control it. But at night it was terrible, it would wake me up a few hours after I had retired and the coughing would be so severe and continuous that it was impossible for me to obtain relaxation of the eye strain while the room was dark. I was compelled to get out of bed and light the light in order to practice the long swing which gave me relief in an incredibly short time, a few minutes or less. I would then go back to bed and sleep for a few hours or the rest of the night without being disturbed by the cough. It was interesting to me that the relief of the eye strain was also a benefit to the bronchial or other lung tension.

For some years I had been afflicted with a chronic tuberculosis of the right elbow joint which at times caused great pain. When I became able to relax the eye strain, to remember or imagine perfect sight, the pain in the elbow disappeared. One evening I retired as usual and slept very comfortably until one o'clock when I was awakened with an intense pain in the elbow. The pain was so severe that I lost all control of my mind and became practically insane. I was unable to remember even my own name or any of the letters on the Snellen Test Card which I read every day. The doctor who was summoned gave me a hyperdermic with morphine every little while but without any appreciable relief. I kept saying, "Somebody help me to remember black," but my attendants sat around the room saying nothing and all they seemed able to do was to watch me suffer and give me morphine. This continued for four hours. During all this time I instinctively was trying to remember or imagine something that I had seen before. All of a sudden I remembered a large black C and the pain let up. In a few minutes I became able to remember all the letters on the Snellen Test Card and fell asleep. I woke up an hour later, six o'clock, apparently perfectly well without any sign of pain or soreness in the elbow. I dressed without any trouble, went downtown to the office and did a day's work without any return of the eye strain or pain in the elbow.


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EDIT: Another useful article:


Sleepiness and Eyestrain

By W. H. Bates, M.D.

How much sleep is necessary to maintain health? This is a question which has never been satisfactorily answered. Theoretically, mental or physical work should increase the need for sleep, but it is a matter of common knowledge that many inactive persons seem to need just as much sleep as those who work. or even more.

Much time has been devoted to the investigation of the symptoms of fatigue. Analyses have been made of the blood of fatigued subjects; the action of the muscles. nerves and brain, the changes in the structure of the cells, under the influence of fatigue, the changes following sleep, have all been carefully studied. But so far very little light has been thrown upon the nature of either fatigue or sleep.

This is a fact, however: that eyestrain has always been demonstrated when fatigue was present, and that fatigue has always been relieved when eyestrain was relieved. Perfect sight is perfect rest, and cannot coexist with fatigue. Even the memory or imagination of fatigue is accompanied by the production of eyestrain and imperfect sight, while the memory of perfect sight will relieve both eyestrain and fatigue. Sleepiness is a common symptom of habitual eyestrain, and when the sight improves the need for sleep is often markedly reduced.

One patient reports that after gaining normal sight without glasses she was able to get on comfortably with seven hours sleep, whereas she had formerly not been able to avoid continual sleepiness and yawning even on nine and ten hours. The inclination to yawn on all occasions had been so overpowering, she stated, that it often subjected her to great embarrassment. On one occasion she yawned so incessantly during a call made in the early evening that the visitor concluded, not unnaturally, that her presence was a burden and departed in high dudgeon, no explanations sufficing to convince her that the yawning was not the result of boredom. The patient was made very unhappy by this condition, but finally became reconciled to it in a measure. thinking that what could not be cured must be endured. Great was her surprise and delight, therefore, when, after discarding her glasses and beginning to practice central fixation, she found herself sleeping less and not yawning so much. She made no conscious effort, she said, to check the yawning, and had indeed almost forgotten about it. She now gets sleepy only at bedtime.

Another patient, although he never had any desire to sleep in the daytime, found it very difficult to keep awake in the evening. At the opera or theatre, at lectures and social gatherings, and at church, he was always sleepy and often went to sleep. It was naturally more difficult for him to keep awake when lie was not interested, but whether he was interested or not he was sure to become more or less sleepy. He never went to a lecture without going to sleep. and the world's most famous song-birds were not always able to keep him awake at the opera. In the case of dull papers or sermons, it did no good to think of something else, for the sound of the speaker's voice acted like an opiate. When lie learned how to relax by the aid of the memory, imagination, shifting, swinging and palming. the trouble gradually became less, and now he can stay awake at all times and in all places where people are supposed to stay awake.


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Quote:I thought that if i could stay plaming for some hours nonstop, every tension wolud go away...

If you truly believe the tension will vanish, and you're convinced it will, then you know what?... I think it just might work.  There was this one man who palmed 20 hours non stop and was very much relieved after that - the cure was also permanent. I'd suggest giving all of the methods a try, not just palming, and see what you find. I find a lot of people are not deriving very much benefit from palming, and it is a little silly to continue if you haven't seen rewarding results. So give the other techniques a shot, and you can see how they work out.

Quote:what do you suggest?

As always, you should be keeping your eyes shifting all day long. Try sweeping your eyes across the 'edges' of objects in your view -- this'll work especially well in cases of astigmatism.  Wink

Warm regards,

- Kaze
waserbund Wrote:i have astigmatism my eyeballs are under pressure, i think that the sleep problems add more to my eyes problems so i think good sleep would decrease the tension in the eyes, but i am still not close enough to good healthy sleep.
I used to have problems sleeping, which escalated to the point where I had to take drugs to go to sleep each night.  Later I became interested in lucid dreaming, which helped me remember my dreams and have some fascinating experiences.
I've done lots of research on sleeping and dream states when I had these problems.  I learned that roughly 95% of all the insomnia cases are caused by the lack of interest in sleeping.  The patient often feels as if they have not accomplished enough that day, and just has nothing to look forward to when attempting to fall asleep.  Most people percieve sleeping as something that's very boring, wastes time, but essential - like filing taxes  Big Grin.  Such people usually do not remember much of their dreams.  They often try to force themselves into a dream state trying to make the best of the time they spend lying in bed.
Lucid dreaming changes all that.  It allows you to explore the realms of your imagination.  The very act of recording and remember your dreams allows you to realize that there is a lot happening while you sleep - and believe it or not, the perceived reality of these events matches those in your waking life.  It's like entering a different world, which ALWAYS more exciting than the present.
Many psychologists believe that the only purpose of sleeping is increase the metabolic rate of your mid brain.  This generates heat that warms mupltiple glands in the bottom portion of your head, ultimately helping to tone the body's endocrine and nervous systems. However, new reserach suggests that dreaming is also an intricate part of your development (hence children need more sleep).  We actually LEARN things while in our dreams.  Additionally, dreaming satisfies the dynamic nature of human beings because humans always need change.  The human mind experiences a great deal of emotion swings, which includes rage and sorrow, when it is kept in the same boring environment in the absence of sleep. This explains why dreams are sometimes so convoluted - to provide some sort of temporary change to our environment.
I think you should look into lucid dreaming (google it).  It's very healthy and an amazing experience.

Quote:so my question is what else do you propose to do exept palming and eye exercises to relax the eyes?
The article that Kaze posted answers your question... Long swing, palming, remembering black letters and a black period.

Quote:palming sometimes have some side effects - five minutes it is calm and painless but after these five minutes i see yellow colours in the black void (i know that is from the strain) and pain shows up again.
Happens a lot to idndividuals new to the Bates method.  Usually they are ok with palming for the first 5 minutes, but then they get bored and look forward to finishing the 10minutes that they promised themselves.  This always bring strain.  The success of a palming session always rests with what happens in your head, not how effectively your cover your eyes.  What exactly do you think of when you perform palming?

Quote:I thought that if i could stay plaming for some hours nonstop, every tension wolud go away... but i am not too sure
what do you suggest?
I wouldn't recommend that if you can't relieve any strain in a 5 minute palming session. A person new to the bates method on this forum tried this for 8 hours without completely understanding palming (it's not just covering your eyes with your palms), and was pretty angry he wasted so much time for nothing.  I agree, it was indeed..nothing.

Greetings Kazekage!

Thank you about the detailed answer, i needed it.

I tried some exercises and relaxation but strain is too hard yet.

I will try the exercises you proposed.

I hope i can ask sometimes for more details if i need ;D

Thanks very much again, now i am going to take a look at some exercises
waserbund, read my post.  I think you posted at exactly the same time that I did, not sure if you noticed.
Thank you too, Paul!

I have the same sleeping problem, i am on "zopiklon" some sort of sleeping pill.

I have e-book lucid dreams and powerful sleeping, but i haven't read lucid dreams, only the powerful sleep and triing to stop the zopiklon, thou it is difficult. I meditate too very often so i got myself into a strange position - a person that knows how to relax and meditate, can't really relax and meditate deeply enough  ;D

Problem is that eyestrain sometimes increases and my astigmatism too increases. Especially when i palm somehow incorrectly. Although i really believe that palming if not the major part, at least is a part of the possible cure for my eyesight and everyones eyesight in princip.

When i palm, i try to relax the eyes by trying to let go the strain from the eyes. I try not to imagine anything bacause sometimes (maybe not always) when i imagine things or visualize i feel my eyes strain as if they are part of the imagining process. So i think i still haven't lern to differ the seeing form visualizing - i mean my body don't make the difference, i know what is the difference after all ;D so this adds more to the tension,specially in after the first 5 minutes for example.
So i try sometimes to palm for 3-4 minutes, then stop and do something else not connected to the eyesight directly and then palm again. I gain a bit of relaxation and relief but after ten minutes my eyes begin to strain normaly (like before the whole palming operation) as my normal eye tension. That made me think that multiple sessions like thisone could make a better relief and more permanent if i plan it correctly.
But i think that some sort of "secret" eludes me still. And that is my greatest fear.

Could one of you, my friends tell me what was the black period cause i have forgotten. I know about remebering something black and trying to see it in palming session, is that it?
And black letters, they must be visualized in palming too?

I have some snellen cards from a Norbekov workshop so i use them sometimes.
I tryied looking wordlines on a bookpage and consentrating in the white line or only below one of the letters, but may be i have to practice it longer and periodicly.

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