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Confused, frustrated, and skeptical

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Confused, frustrated, and skeptical
#1
Hello all,

I thought I would post this mostly as a reflection of vision improvement I have learned over the years, and perhaps to incite some discussion between those who are either in the same boat as myself or have for a time had doubts about vision improvement but harnessed results. This is not to bash the Bates method, though I do feel a need to give it a skeptical inquiry. Perhaps this will get glossed over or perhaps something enlightening will come out of it.

A little about myself: I started with 20/20 vision until I was about 20 years of age. I cannot recall exactly when, but I would say that is about nine years ago. Over the years, my vision has become increasingly myopic, and my last prescription given to me is -2.5 and -2.25 L/R respectively.

I came to know about the Bates method pretty early since I developed myopia. This was probably in the first year I developed myopia. Vision is important to me, and I had sought ways to improve it through the least invasive ways as possible (naturally of course). I tried to palm whenever i could, tried to shift, tried to work on central fixation, tried to get some sun, avoided sunglasses, and many times a combination of the above. There were a few times I would think I got a "clear flash", but that only lasts until a few blinks normally--which often leads me to suspect that my eyeball simply had some residual moisture on it.

In any case, there were many-a-times where I would perceive the methods helped. I have even read through David's article on this website a few times to see if something I was doing was amiss. What is discouraging, however, is that every couple years or so, I would go to get an eye exam, only to find out my eye is in fact getting worst. This lead me to two area of thought: 1) Either I am doing something wrong, or 2) There really isn't any way to reverse myopia, which may also imply that following the Bates method or some derivative of it is a waste of time.

With point 1, I generally try to be conscious of what I do with my eyes. If I stare at the computer for a long time, I would try to look up, for instance. The only thing I haven't done is to be rid of glasses for good. I try not to wear my glasses whenever I don't need it, but my job requires good eyesight in the interest of safety, so I do wear it every time I work, and when I drive. Could this be the reason why my vision is deteriorating? Perhaps I simply don't palm long enough?

There is, however, a skeptical side to me which leads to point 2. After doing a lot of research on vision improvement, there does seem to be some repeated patterns in the area of natural vision improvement which makes me a tad suspicious. One of these patterns is Dr. Bates himself, who is the most cited individual for anyone who practices techniques on natural improvement. His method dates back to late 1800s, and over the past 100+ years, there seems few people who talk about it, and there is also little change to this methods. People still cite his original book! If his methods worked, wouldn't more people talk about it?

People who follow natural vision improvement often tend to say that the reasons why his methods are not discussed is because the optics industry (the people involved in issuing you those glasses/contacts/lasik) would lose a lot of money. At first, I thought that this was plausible, but in retrospect, it seems like a large conspiracy theory as well. A LOT of people would have to either be silent or ignorant for this to be true.

The other thing that has made me a bit skeptical is the causation of myopia. Almost all the sources on natural vision I hav read, including Quackenbush's "Relearning to See" (yes I even bought his book), and other vision teachers have stated that the cause of myopia is the straining of extraocular muscles around the eyeball. This is consistent with Dr. Bates's theory from what I can tell. It seems that a large part of the Bates method, and other natural vision improvement methods, hinges on Bates being right--that the eyeball elongates by external muscles and by relieving the strain on those muscles, the eyeball goes back to it's natural shape.

While it sounds reasonable and simple enough, the more conventionally accepted cause of myopia has to do with the ciliary muscle inside the eyeball and near the lens. From my understanding, the ciliary muscle can strain due to intense close work, and may spasm. If it spasms for a length of time, it stretches the outside wall of the eyeball. Because the eyeball wall stretches, the inside of the eye fills up with more vitreous humour (the gel inside the eyeball), and thus the eyeball becomes permanently elongated. This actually makes a lot of sense, and would explain the difficulties in reversing myopia.

So, to try and keep the rant short, it seems that I have reached a crossroad here. Perhaps my posting here would indicate that I am confused. To this, I would say yes, I am very confused. The reason why I bring it up in the first place is twofold: one, so that people can perhaps fill me in on what I missed, and two, so I can make a decision on how to carry on.

I have heard from most people that not wearing glasses can also make my vision worst, because according to these people, uncorrected vision can cause strain as well--perhaps worst than otherwise. A friend of mine has a prescription of -1.00, and has maintained his vision for many years because he wears his glasses consistently. I know for one that I don't wear my glasses consistently (I do only as needed), and my vision certainly has gone worst. I have also heard from research papers that depriving the eyes of peripheral stimulus (using peripheral vision) is sometimes a cause of myopia--and many of the Bates derivative methods really seem to focus on the central vision, which is another area of confusion.

To wrap this up, and to not make this much longer of a rant than it already is, I want to conclude by saying that I bring these points up for the sake of discussion and food for though. I'm skeptical, I'm confused, and I want clarity, so I thought I would post here to see what people think. It seems that there are a few people who have arguably found their vision to be improved on this forum, so I am not trying to be quick at dismissing anything. What I would like to know is what people think of these points I bring up, and whether my line of thinking is in error, or perhaps I am simply not trying hard enough on improving my vision naturally.
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#2
It's not that you're not trying hard enough. I think you're trying too hard, trying to palm, trying to shift, trying to work on central fixation. Look for the times when you can forget about your eyes. Let it be easy. Accept what you see, don't try and struggle and strain to make it clearer. A student of mine who started with -8 glasses now has the daily habit of walking to the gym and working out every morning without his glasses, and reports that he is getting more and more comfortable without his glasses, forgetting about his vision and just doing what he needs to do. I saw him last week, and he mentioned a time when he talked to a friend for a few hours without glasses, then put them on and promptly got a headache! Your prescription is a lot lower than his. I'd notice how you're looking, both with and without glasses, and how your eyes feel, when they feel relaxed and open and when they feel strained. I'm thinking you're got a habit of straining most of the time much more than you realize. Just my opinion.
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#3
(05-28-2014, 03:22 PM)RB120 Wrote: Over the years, my vision has become increasingly myopic, and my last prescription given to me is -2.5 and -2.25 L/R respectively.


What is discouraging, however, is that every couple years or so, I would go to get an eye exam, only to find out my eye is in fact getting worst.

Go to a behavioral optometrist if you can. A behavioral optometrist told me that young people with low myopia (which yours still is) get the best results. Just Google "behavioral optometrist <your location>".
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#4
Quote: A friend of mine has a prescription of -1.00, and has maintained his vision for many years because he wears his glasses consistently

I had -0.5 when I was three year old, and since then I was always wearing glasses till 25 years. My eyesight during that time went from -0.5 with no astigmatism, to -8 with 4 cyl astigmatism, and what's funny I was not using computers/tv that much. My eye doctor said many people ends the same as me, very few people continue wearing the same prescription with time, and -1 dioptre is very small number, so it doesnt strain that much as for example -5.

But it's history for me now, I have spend 5 years trying various things, and I succeeded. But I wasnt like most people!!! When I had no results, I immediately tweak what I was doing or I was trying new things!!! Speaking about Bates, that guy was beyond his time, and I would agree with most of his conclusions. But no wonder people didnt see results using "Bates Method", because he only talks about eyes alone (as if that "organ" was separate part in our bodies), but the thing is OUR WHOLE BODIES DOESNT WORK THAT WAY, EVEY PART IS INTERCONNECTED. For example, if you have colapsed arches in your foot, your body starts using (strain) other parts/muscles more, and in the end you will feel strain in your eyes Smile.

here's my thread and conclusions
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#5
[quote='Paul888' pid='19375' dateline='1404904829']
[quote]Speaking about Bates, that guy was beyond his time, and I would agree with most of his conclusions. But no wonder people didnt see results using "Bates Method", because he only talks about eyes alone (as if that "organ" was separate part in our bodies), but the thing is OUR WHOLE BODIES DOESNT WORK THAT WAY, EVEY PART IS INTERCONNECTED. For example, if you have colapsed arches in your foot, your body starts using (strain) other parts/muscles more, and in the end you will feel strain in your eyes Smile.

here's my thread and conclusions
[/quote]

Careful making inaccurate statements as such, it may make one wonder how much of Bates you have actually read. A prime example of how Bates also considered the WHOLE body is his June 20 magazine, in which he wrote "A Lesson From the Greeks." You may want to check it out. Full-body swinging techniques, breathing techniques, encouraging people to get out and move in various ways, are all ways of using the entire body in the process of healing vision. In general, if it helps (good posture, breathing, motion, exercise, etc.) relax the mind, it will help the eyes and vision. If the mind cannot relax, it will be of limited help.
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#6
Quote:Careful making inaccurate statements as such, it may make one wonder how much of Bates you have actually read.
I read that Bates article many years ago (when I had similar problems with sleeping), Bates mentioned there about that eye tiredness during sleep. But posture advices in that article was very simple and beside's that small article Bates spend most of his time around other things (like palming and re-teaching people how their should use their "eyes" or "mind").

I wonder how many people after reading Bates work thought, that they need to put most of their attention around muscle imbalances and spine condition ? Very few people if not none. In comparison, everyone is talking about palming, shifting, etc.
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#7
(07-23-2014, 10:40 AM)Paul888 Wrote:
Quote:Careful making inaccurate statements as such, it may make one wonder how much of Bates you have actually read.
I read that Bates article many years ago (when I had similar problems with sleeping), Bates mentioned there about that eye tiredness during sleep. But posture advices in that article was very simple and beside's that small article Bates spend most of his time around other things (like palming and re-teaching people how their should use their "eyes" or "mind").

I wonder how many people after reading Bates work thought, that they need to put most of their attention around muscle imbalances and spine condition ? Very few people if not none. In comparison, everyone is talking about palming, shifting, etc.

Of all the things he could have written about, he chose that. It must have been significant enough in his mind for him to include it in his works. He was a very strong athlete himself, an avid runner (marathon runner), and accomplished tennis player. His insight into the central nervous system and how it affected the eyes was unparalled in his time. But, as he demonstrated countless ways and times, the source of the problem originates in the mind, which controls all the systems of the body, muscular included. If the mind cannot be controlled & relaxed, the body cannot be, regardless of how great a condition the spine may be or muscular balance may be. He found it to be functional, rarely physical.
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#8
If someone (for example) has collapsed disc somewhere in his spine, just mind relaxation (or re-learning proper vision habits) as Bates teach will not help that person at all, thats my experience.

Right now, "RB120" author of this thread doubts vision improvement, he still has no results, and I can feel what he mean.

Before I was "straining to see" no metter how much palming or other Bates relaxation I've done. I could use shifting, swinging, imagination, read small prints thinking about certain things (relaxing my mind and dont trying to read that print like Bates suggested), but that didnt helped in the long run. Even simple looking or moving my eyeballs strained my eyes (it was like my eyes were running on VERY LOW BATTERY SUPPLY), whats more on one point my eyes become so tired (I was walking without glasses), that even my blinking changed. My eyes started "hard blinking" and when I tried "soft blinking" I had tears in my eyes, not only that, my vision become even worse than after wearing my glasses!! I remember to this day, how angry I was, when I had my long awaited eye exam. With glasses my right eye dioptre was -5.5 and 3 cyl astigmatism, but after working with Bates advices (and walking without glasses) it became -8 and 4 cyls astigmatism (I still have papers from that eye exam), it was like my all hope about vision improvement was lost during that eye exam, not only it didnt improve, it became a lot worse.

But thanks good, I made a decision to start doing things my way. I started learning about human body, and since then I was paying attenion to what "element" in my body are being out of aligement or misused. To name a most improtant one, I had collapsed first disc in cervical spine (result of extreme forward head posture since I was kid), and that directly strained my sub occipital muscles. That muscles group on the back of your neck work with eye myscles together, and problems within sub occipital muscles will directly translate into strained vision (and no amount of palming will help).

After I worked on my whole body muscle imbalances and spine, there was a time, when all that tiednes go away. I provided proper "fuel" supply to my eyes and since then there was no such a thing like "straining to see" without glasses, I wasnt doing anything different with my eyes (my vision habbits were the same and I stoped doing palming exercise), but my eyes stared feeling relaxed and had needed energy for work. I could easly do things, that were straining before, for example, I could look for smallest details possible and my eyes would start to focus, there's no longer such a thing like obsessing myself that "I need to clear my mind, and dont concentrate on what I'm reading in order to see better". On top of that, all eye exercises that didnt worked before, started working, and my eyes since then started improving.
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#9
(07-24-2014, 05:27 AM)Paul888 Wrote: If someone (for example) has collapsed disc somewhere in his spine, just mind relaxation (or re-learning proper vision habits) as Bates teach will not help that person at all, thats my experience.

Right now, "RB120" author of this thread doubts vision improvement, he still has no results, and I can feel what he mean.

Before I was "straining to see" no metter how much palming or other relaxation I've done. I could use shifting, swinging, imagination, read small prints thinking about certain things (relaxing my mind and dont trying to read that print like Bates suggested), but that didnt helped in the long run. Even simple looking or moving my eyeballs strained my eyes (it was like my eyes were running on VERY LOW BATTERY SUPPLY), whats more on one point my eyes become so tired (I was walking without glasses), that even my blinking changed. My eyes started "hard blinking" and when I tried "soft blinking" I had tears in my eyes, not only that, my vision become even worse than after wearing my glasses!! I remember to this day, how angry I was, when I had my long awaited eye exam. With glasses my right eye dioptre was -5.5 and 3 cyl astigmatism, but after working with Bates advices (and walking without glasses) it became -8 and 4 cyls astigmatism (I still have papers from that eye exam), it was like my all hope about vision improvement was lost during that eye exam, not only it didnt improve, it became a lot worse.

But thanks good, I made a decision to start doing things my way. I started learning about human body, and since then I was paying attenion to what "element" in my body are being out of aligement or misused. To name a most improtant one, I had collapsed first disc in cervical spine (result of extreme forward head posture since I was kid), and that directly strained my sub occipital muscles. That muscles group on the back of your neck work with eye myscles together, and problems within sub occipital muscles will directly translate into strained vision (and no amount of palming will help).

After I worked on my whole body muscle imbalances and spine, there was a time, when all that tiednes go away. I provided proper "fuel" supply to my eyes and since then there was no such a thing like "straining to see" without glasses, I wasnt doing anything different with my eyes (my vision habbits were the same and I stoped doing palming exercise), but my eyes stared feeling relaxed and had needed energy for work. I could easly do things, that were straining before, for example, I could look for smallest details possible and my eyes would start to focus, there's no longer such a thing like obsessing myself that "I need to clear my mind, and dont concentrate on what I'm reading in order to see better". On top of that, all eye exercises that didnt worked before, started working, and my eyes since then started improving.

If someone has a collapsed disk in their spine, they should seek medical intervention for a serious medical condition. But just because you were not able to improve vision doesn't mean that someone else can't. Obviously one should take care of the medical condition, so as to be in the best frame of mind and health. There's no way to tell if you were even practicing anything correctly, to get benefit. Not everyone palms correctly, not everyone gets benefit, as Bates wrote many times. Same with other techniques. People sometimes strain more, because they approach it totally incorrectly, try too hard, or not enough. The vast majority of myopes are not afflicted with conditions, especially rare ones like spine injuries that would interfere with their visual system in any significant way. It is fortunate that you were able to cure your medical condition, it sounds like it helped your frame of mind much. But I am still a little unclear how suboccipital muscles work together with extracular muscles, as they are envervated by entirely different nerves, and have no physical connection, one being behind on the outside of the skull, the others, inside the front of the skull. Maybe you could provide some medical documentation on that point. Thanks.
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#10
Quote:If someone has a collapsed disk in their spine, they should seek medical intervention for a serious medical condition.
I've done that, they told me that it will be hard to fix it without operation Smile. But it was possible, when I learn what real perfect posture should look like (most importanlty, when my head stoped leaning forward and I started sleaping in good position) that disc came back into place itself.

I also fixed my retracted jaw without surgery Smile. It's funny when doctors tell people, that they need expensive eye/spine/jaw surgeries and things like that in order to fix these things. It's looks to me, like a medical profession is only about making money, not about helping people.

Quote: There's no way to tell if you were even practicing anything correctly, to get benefit
I'm doing the same things right now (shifting, and especialy mind relaxation) that didnt worked before, and all of that works like magic. There's no way I was doing that incorrectly in the first place, all of that just didnt work without proper "energy/fuel" supply to my eyes. Right now it very hard for me, to strain my eyes, it's almost impossible (with perfect posture, without muscle imbalances, and with relaxed mind). I almost feel like there's no such a thing like straining to see, only lack of energy/fuel to see.

Quote:But just because you were not able to improve vision doesn't mean that someone else can't.
Yes some people are sucesfull at that, but in my opinion, it should not be a lottery, and it should not take YEARS. If it is a lottery, than it's clearly a sign, that all current vision improvement programs arent addresing real cause of poor vision.

Quote:envervated by entirely different nerves, and have no physical connection,
No physical connection ? OK will see Smile

http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/i...al-Muscles

heres a quote from that link
Quote:Sub-Occipital-MusclesTo feel their connection to eye movements for yourself, put your hands up on either side of your head with your thumbs just under your skull in back. Work your thumbs gently in past the superficial muscles so you can feel the ones deep under the occipital ridge. Close your eyes. Now, turn your eyes to the right and left, while your other fingers keep your head from moving, as we did with our client before. Can you feel those little muscles changing tonus under your thumbs? Even though your head is not moving, these little primary muscles are responding to your eye movements. Look up and down and you will feel other muscles within this set engage in a similar way. Try to move your eyes without these muscles moving and you will find that it is impossible. They are so fundamentally connected that any eye movement will produce a change in tonus in these suboccipitals. The rest of the spinal muscles "listen" to the suboccipitals and tend to go the way they are going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CaT1IDkP0
And heres important video illustration

When I feelt HUGE relive in occipital muscle area my eyes started improving. since then, I literealy feel these muscles relaxing and when they are doing that, fluctuations in my vision start igniting periods of much better vision. Not only that, my vision improvement changed muscle tone in that suboccipital area and i'ts changing with every day.

How to relax occipital muscle area ? Even collapsed arches in your foot counts, because the rest of the body will adjust to that "small" change, and it will put strain into your neck area in the end (eyes also).

My opinion is, Bates advices are good, shifting works, and mind relaxation works EXTREMELY WELL (I myself have found out one mind exercise that allow me to see perfect clear flash on my will), but before people start using them without harm (most importanlty start going without glasses), they should spend months, or even YEARS reversing damage to their whole bodies in order to relax all important muscles/organs, that connects to their vision, only then their eyes will have propper energy/fuel to work without strain (walking without glasses will be pleasure, not torture). And truth is, EVERY part in our bodies connects to our vision, some way or annother (people just have no knowledge about that). What will happen, if someone will persist with eye exercises and relaxation, without taking care of the rest first ? His eye muscles will start relaxing, but minutes/hours later that person will feel pain in eye muscles, because other not relaxed muscles will be straining that relaxed eye muscles. People should read "Paul Anderson pathway to normal vision", he was Bates enthusiast, and he was doing exactly that mistake. No wonder his method was directly correlated with pain in his eyes Smile. He wrote in his ebook/stie, that this "pain" was a good sign, but anyone with knowledge about human body should know, that pain is NEVER a good sign, it's just the opposite. In my 5 years journey I read about many people, that were experiencing similar pain in their eyes.

Quote:The vast majority of myopes are not afflicted with conditions, especially rare ones like spine injuries that would interfere with their visual system in any significant way
My opinion is different. Most people in todays modern societies lost their natural spine curvatures, and thats enough. Although it will not lead to lost of vision right away, it will be a lot easier to strain your eyes.
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#11
(07-25-2014, 03:49 AM)Paul888 Wrote:
Quote:If someone has a collapsed disk in their spine, they should seek medical intervention for a serious medical condition.
I've done that, they told me that it will be hard to fix it without operation Smile. But it was possible, when I learn what real perfect posture should look like (most importanlty, when my head stoped leaning forward and I started sleaping in good position) that disc came back into place itself.

I also fixed my retracted jaw without surgery Smile. It's funny when doctors tell people, that they need expensive eye/spine/jaw surgeries and things like that in order to fix these things. It's looks to me, like a medical profession is only about making money, not about helping people.

Quote: There's no way to tell if you were even practicing anything correctly, to get benefit
I'm doing the same things right now (shifting, and especialy mind relaxation) that didnt worked before, and all of that works like magic. There's no way I was doing that incorrectly in the first place, all of that just didnt work without proper "energy/fuel" supply to my eyes. Right now it very hard for me, to strain my eyes, it's almost impossible (with perfect posture, without muscle imbalances, and with relaxed mind). I almost feel like there's no such a thing like straining to see, only lack of energy/fuel to see.

Quote:But just because you were not able to improve vision doesn't mean that someone else can't.
Yes some people are sucesfull at that, but in my opinion, it should not be a lottery, and it should not take YEARS. If it is a lottery, than it's clearly a sign, that all current vision improvement programs arent addresing real cause of poor vision.

Quote:envervated by entirely different nerves, and have no physical connection,
No physical connection ? OK will see Smile

http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/i...al-Muscles

heres a quote from that link
Quote:Sub-Occipital-MusclesTo feel their connection to eye movements for yourself, put your hands up on either side of your head with your thumbs just under your skull in back. Work your thumbs gently in past the superficial muscles so you can feel the ones deep under the occipital ridge. Close your eyes. Now, turn your eyes to the right and left, while your other fingers keep your head from moving, as we did with our client before. Can you feel those little muscles changing tonus under your thumbs? Even though your head is not moving, these little primary muscles are responding to your eye movements. Look up and down and you will feel other muscles within this set engage in a similar way. Try to move your eyes without these muscles moving and you will find that it is impossible. They are so fundamentally connected that any eye movement will produce a change in tonus in these suboccipitals. The rest of the spinal muscles "listen" to the suboccipitals and tend to go the way they are going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CaT1IDkP0
And heres important video illustration

When I feelt HUGE relive in occipital muscle area my eyes started improving. since then, I literealy feel these muscles relaxing and when they are doing that, fluctuations in my vision start igniting periods of much better vision. Not only that, my vision improvement changed muscle tone in that suboccipital area and i'ts changing with every day.

How to relax occipital muscle area ? Even collapsed arches in your foot counts, because the rest of the body will adjust to that "small" change, and it will put strain into your neck area in the end (eyes also).

My opinion is, Bates advices are good, shifting works, and mind relaxation works EXTREMELY WELL (I myself have found out one mind exercise that allow me to see perfect clear flash on my will), but before people start using them without harm (most importanlty start going without glasses), they should spend months, or even YEARS reversing damage to their whole bodies in order to relax all important muscles/organs, that connects to their vision, only then their eyes will have propper energy/fuel to work without strain (walking without glasses will be pleasure, not torture). And truth is, EVERY part in our bodies connects to our vision, some way or annother (people just have no knowledge about that). What will happen, if someone will persist with eye exercises and relaxation, without taking care of the rest first ? His eye muscles will start relaxing, but minutes/hours later that person will feel pain in eye muscles, because other not relaxed muscles will be straining that relaxed eye muscles. People should read "Paul Anderson pathway to normal vision", he was Bates enthusiast, and he was doing exactly that mistake. No wonder his method was directly correlated with pain in his eyes Smile. He wrote in his ebook/stie, that this "pain" was a good sign, but anyone with knowledge about human body should know, that pain is NEVER a good sign, it's just the opposite. In my 5 years journey I read about many people, that were experiencing similar pain in their eyes.

Quote:The vast majority of myopes are not afflicted with conditions, especially rare ones like spine injuries that would interfere with their visual system in any significant way
My opinion is different. Most people in todays modern societies lost their natural spine curvatures, and thats enough. Although it will not lead to lost of vision right away, it will be a lot easier to strain your eyes.

Still, I see no evidence of any physical connection w/ extraoculars. Neurological connections exist with the brain, and different visual centers, but so do many other parts of the body. If I stub my pinky toe, I can go partially temporarily blind from the pain if too severe. Simple emotions, anxiety, worry, can wreak all kinds of refractive havoc. IMO, you really lack evidence showing any correlation with the main cause, or causes, of myopia or other refractive errors. Most is speculation. I agree that there is much that we all can do to avoid bad physical habits, we need to get outside and move our bodies and get lots of natural light, natural scenery, visual stimulation. Bodies are meant to move, and sitting in stationary positions too long never leads to anything positive for the body. Even then, one will still have to learn how to use the eyes properly, as that alone may help, but not erase years of incorrect use, and subconscious straining and tension. It wasn't a lottery that got you there, and it won't be a lottery that get's you out of it, either.
Reply
#12
(07-26-2014, 03:15 AM)arocarty Wrote:
(07-25-2014, 03:49 AM)Paul888 Wrote:
Quote:If someone has a collapsed disk in their spine, they should seek medical intervention for a serious medical condition.
I've done that, they told me that it will be hard to fix it without operation Smile. But it was possible, when I learn what real perfect posture should look like (most importanlty, when my head stoped leaning forward and I started sleaping in good position) that disc came back into place itself.

I also fixed my retracted jaw without surgery Smile. It's funny when doctors tell people, that they need expensive eye/spine/jaw surgeries and things like that in order to fix these things. It's looks to me, like a medical profession is only about making money, not about helping people.

Quote: There's no way to tell if you were even practicing anything correctly, to get benefit
I'm doing the same things right now (shifting, and especialy mind relaxation) that didnt worked before, and all of that works like magic. There's no way I was doing that incorrectly in the first place, all of that just didnt work without proper "energy/fuel" supply to my eyes. Right now it very hard for me, to strain my eyes, it's almost impossible (with perfect posture, without muscle imbalances, and with relaxed mind). I almost feel like there's no such a thing like straining to see, only lack of energy/fuel to see.

Quote:But just because you were not able to improve vision doesn't mean that someone else can't.
Yes some people are sucesfull at that, but in my opinion, it should not be a lottery, and it should not take YEARS. If it is a lottery, than it's clearly a sign, that all current vision improvement programs arent addresing real cause of poor vision.

Quote:envervated by entirely different nerves, and have no physical connection,
No physical connection ? OK will see Smile

http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/i...al-Muscles

heres a quote from that link
Quote:Sub-Occipital-MusclesTo feel their connection to eye movements for yourself, put your hands up on either side of your head with your thumbs just under your skull in back. Work your thumbs gently in past the superficial muscles so you can feel the ones deep under the occipital ridge. Close your eyes. Now, turn your eyes to the right and left, while your other fingers keep your head from moving, as we did with our client before. Can you feel those little muscles changing tonus under your thumbs? Even though your head is not moving, these little primary muscles are responding to your eye movements. Look up and down and you will feel other muscles within this set engage in a similar way. Try to move your eyes without these muscles moving and you will find that it is impossible. They are so fundamentally connected that any eye movement will produce a change in tonus in these suboccipitals. The rest of the spinal muscles "listen" to the suboccipitals and tend to go the way they are going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CaT1IDkP0
And heres important video illustration

When I feelt HUGE relive in occipital muscle area my eyes started improving. since then, I literealy feel these muscles relaxing and when they are doing that, fluctuations in my vision start igniting periods of much better vision. Not only that, my vision improvement changed muscle tone in that suboccipital area and i'ts changing with every day.

How to relax occipital muscle area ? Even collapsed arches in your foot counts, because the rest of the body will adjust to that "small" change, and it will put strain into your neck area in the end (eyes also).

My opinion is, Bates advices are good, shifting works, and mind relaxation works EXTREMELY WELL (I myself have found out one mind exercise that allow me to see perfect clear flash on my will), but before people start using them without harm (most importanlty start going without glasses), they should spend months, or even YEARS reversing damage to their whole bodies in order to relax all important muscles/organs, that connects to their vision, only then their eyes will have propper energy/fuel to work without strain (walking without glasses will be pleasure, not torture). And truth is, EVERY part in our bodies connects to our vision, some way or annother (people just have no knowledge about that). What will happen, if someone will persist with eye exercises and relaxation, without taking care of the rest first ? His eye muscles will start relaxing, but minutes/hours later that person will feel pain in eye muscles, because other not relaxed muscles will be straining that relaxed eye muscles. People should read "Paul Anderson pathway to normal vision", he was Bates enthusiast, and he was doing exactly that mistake. No wonder his method was directly correlated with pain in his eyes Smile. He wrote in his ebook/stie, that this "pain" was a good sign, but anyone with knowledge about human body should know, that pain is NEVER a good sign, it's just the opposite. In my 5 years journey I read about many people, that were experiencing similar pain in their eyes.

Quote:The vast majority of myopes are not afflicted with conditions, especially rare ones like spine injuries that would interfere with their visual system in any significant way
My opinion is different. Most people in todays modern societies lost their natural spine curvatures, and thats enough. Although it will not lead to lost of vision right away, it will be a lot easier to strain your eyes.

Still, I see no evidence of any physical connection w/ extraoculars. Neurological connections exist with the brain, and different visual centers, but so do many other parts of the body. If I stub my pinky toe, I can go partially temporarily blind from the pain if too severe. Simple emotions, anxiety, worry, can wreak all kinds of refractive havoc. IMO, you really lack evidence showing any correlation with the main cause, or causes, of myopia or other refractive errors. Most is speculation. I agree that there is much that we all can do to avoid bad physical habits, we need to get outside and move our bodies and get lots of natural light, natural scenery, visual stimulation. Bodies are meant to move, and sitting in stationary positions too long never leads to anything positive for the body. Even then, one will still have to learn how to use the eyes properly, as that alone may help, but not erase years of incorrect use, and subconscious straining and tension. It wasn't a lottery that got you there, and it won't be a lottery that get's you out of it, either.

In 2009 A corrupt chiropractor dislocated 3 bones in my neck, C-1, 2, 6, more in the upper, middle spine, hips, injured nerves and cartilage, muscles.

This resulted in astigmatism, bouts of strange type blindness (like a old tv screen off channel; white static) in middle of night waking up with the neck tight, muscles spasming), vertigo 3 times in hospital, and a wandering eye. Overall vision lowered.

Honest doctors and PT 'physical therapy' cured the vertigo, trouble walking, lifting, ear ringing and helped stop the bouts of blindness. BUT; I also had to do the Bates Method to completely correct the eyesight, remove the astigmatism, blur, wandering eye. The Bates method saved my eyesight!
Reply
#13
Quote:Still, I see no evidence of any physical connection w/ extraoculars
You choose to ignore my quoted links (excerpts from medical books, or even chiropractor opinion on this) but I choose to belive these people, not only because their medical opinion make sense to me, but mainly because I can test that for myself.

For me it's impossible to move my eyes (left or right) without the same movement in suboccipitals, so they really do work together. Also, because I know how to relax my eye muscles very fast, as a result of that I can always feel nice stretch in my suboccipital muscles during my period of improvement in vision. For me there's no better evidence than this.

Quote:In 2009 A corrupt chiropractor dislocated 3 bones in my neck, C-1, 2, 6, more in the upper, middle spine, hips, injured nerves and cartilage, muscles.

This resulted in astigmatism, bouts of strange type blindness
Glad that you overcome your problems with neck/vision Smile.
Reply
#14
(07-27-2014, 02:18 PM)Paul888 Wrote:
Quote:Still, I see no evidence of any physical connection w/ extraoculars
You choose to ignore my quoted links (excerpts from medical books, or even chiropractor opinion on this) but I choose to belive these people, not only because their medical opinion make sense to me, but mainly because I can test that for myself.

For me it's impossible to move my eyes (left or right) without the same movement in suboccipitals, so they really do work together. Also, because I know how to relax my eye muscles very fast, as a result of that I can always feel nice stretch in my suboccipital muscles during my period of improvement in vision. For me there's no better evidence than this.

Quote:In 2009 A corrupt chiropractor dislocated 3 bones in my neck, C-1, 2, 6, more in the upper, middle spine, hips, injured nerves and cartilage, muscles.

This resulted in astigmatism, bouts of strange type blindness
Glad that you overcome your problems with neck/vision Smile.

Injuries can lower the eyesight, for sure.
But; the eye doctor only wanted to prescribe glasses and refused to get involved in discussion of the injury the chiropractor caused, the wandering eye... No reply to my questions. Just tried give me glasses and sales pitches for cornea surgery. I refused them.

The Bates method brought the vision back. The PT helped too as the pinched nerves... were released. One honest chirop in 2 treatments corrected alot of the damage the dishonest chirops caused but I could not continue with the nice chiropractor due to it bringing back vertigo. Some nerve... damage is just not correctable with more chiropractic and I did not want to get a stroke; vertigo is a main symptom of chiropractic gone wrong and causing stroke, even for a honest doctor.

Most people don't have these extra problems but eyeglasses can cause a lot of similar tension in the eye muscles and tension the mind. All that people have to do is; remove the glasses and learn to use the vision correct, learn what relaxation practice works for them.
Reply
#15
Quote:eyeglasses can cause a lot of similar tension in the eye muscles and tension the mind.
I tried my last lower prescription glasses (just 4 diopters without cilinders) few weaks ago, and you know what happened ? I could see perfectly in them, but after 30 minutes I feelt HUGE strain in my suboocipotal muscles area. In fact this strain was so big, that my neck muscles were constantly pulling my head to the ceiling. When I stoped using eyeglasses, immediately that strain ended. For me it would be very hard to start using glasses again from now on, it's not possible to relax eye muscles in them.
Reply

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