02-10-2007, 02:04 AM
This is the second time I talked with my cousin. Unsurprisingly, he couldn't understand where his reasoning had gone wrong. He remains a true skeptic, but here is the remainder of the conversation so you can see how I tried to convince him. He wouldn't even take the actual experiences of a family member he seems to respect into consideration. He is okay at arguing, but some of his points regarding the brain and the mind and how they work were very weakly constructed. He seems to have no idea of what he's trying to say exactly, yet he defends his understanding as if it were 100% correct. I know my points were stronger and I did offer some compelling examples that should have made him question things. It's too bad he thinks our scientists and optometrists are smart enough to find out whatever has gone wrong, although I gave him direct evidence indicating otherwise (Helmholtz's Theory of Accommodation reference at Wikipedia, for example). This should've been a "hint" to him that scientists aren't always one step ahead on everything. One detail overlooked, especially if it has to do with something right at the optometry foundation, and just about anything is suspect to potential flaws. It seems that Helmholtz's Theory was treated the way a cold case would be in a criminal investigation, closed from further investigation due to "limited manpower" and resources and interest. Then no one but Bates checked into it. It's amazing how some people are unable to think outside the limits they have imposed on themselves..
Here is the conversation...
Me (10:08:01 PM): Hello
My cousin (10:08:14 PM): yo whats up
.
(skipped portion of conversation)
.
Would you be willing to continue the discussion a little more? I have something I want to show you
My cousin (10:10:08 PM): sure
My cousin (10:10:25 PM): i may be somewhat delayed in responce just cuz im on wow but ill reply as fast as i can
Me (10:11:08 PM): okay, last time you said the eye is a physical organ and it sees mainly through its anatomy itself rather than the mind, did I understand you there correctly?
Me (10:11:22 PM): well you didn't "say" but you get my drift
My cousin (10:11:57 PM): What i mean is the mind gets all of its function from the brain.
Me (10:12:02 PM): yeah, sorry I wasn't separating the mind and brain, but I was tired
Me (10:12:12 PM): yes I know the mind is a function of the brain
My cousin (10:12:27 PM): cool
Me (10:12:47 PM): want to see how the mind can be manipulated to effect how we see?
My cousin (10:13:08 PM): by mind do u mean brain?
Me (10:13:03 PM): I typed this up carefully so it would make sense
My cousin (10:13:15 PM): okay
Me (10:13:15 PM): I mean the vision center of the brain
Me (10:13:21 PM): mind, that is, I guess
My cousin (10:13:30 PM): okay
Me (10:13:26 PM): The mental process is required to decode objects out there, and it can also influence how we see. An example of how is the retina image being flipped correct way down shortly after birth. Another example of how is optical illusions, such as a small single-shade gray square appearing different next to different shades of gray and black. Yet another example of how is looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface. Our vision can play tricks on us. Itâââ‰â¢s known as perceptive intelligence, the capability to interpret what we see differently. Imagination can define how we see. To imagine something is to believe, even if only temporarily. It would be illogical to dismiss the possibility that the mind also has the power to ââ∠âblurâââ¬ï¿½ and ââ∠âclear upâââ¬ï¿½ what we see, since vision is not strictly a physical function.
Send Message Failed. Message is too long.
My cousin (10:13:48 PM): i love optical illusions
Me (10:13:40 PM): The mental process is required to decode objects out there, and it can also influence how we see. An example of how is the retina image being flipped correct way down shortly after birth. Another example of how is optical illusions, such as a small single-shade gray square appearing different next to different shades of gray and black. Yet another example of how is looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface. Our vision can play tricks on us. Itâââ‰â¢s known as perceptive intelligence, the capability to interpret what we see differently. Imagination can define how we see.
Me (10:13:42 PM): To imagine something is to believe, even if only temporarily. It would be illogical to dismiss the possibility that the mind also has the power to ââ∠âblurâââ¬ï¿½ and ââ∠âclear upâââ¬ï¿½ what we see, since vision is not strictly a physical function.
Me (10:14:35 PM): yeah optical illusions are fun, I love them too!
My cousin (10:15:05 PM): I don't believe that one can pretend to see something differently, but i certainly agree that the brain goes through some interesting processes. Its really cool if you can find the blindspot in your eye.
My cousin (10:15:24 PM): I showed Grandma an optical illusion that shows a page that looks like 2 shades of gray
My cousin (10:15:30 PM): she couldnt believe it was the same shade the whole way thorugh lol
Me (10:15:36 PM): oh yeah, I know how that goes
My cousin (10:15:50 PM): there were some really cool examples in the optics chapter of my physics book i wish i could link them ud like em
Me (10:15:54 PM): Would you like to see the 3rd example of how the vision can curve the "space" around us?
Me (10:16:43 PM): It is very strong evidence that our vision can really be altered by the mind itself
My cousin (10:16:55 PM): vision doesnt actually curve space
Me (10:16:48 PM): and it can be readily observed
Me (10:16:52 PM): I know it doesn't
Me (10:16:59 PM): but it makes space appear to have curved
My cousin (10:17:20 PM): yea there are lots of optical reasons for that
My cousin (10:17:32 PM): they physics of optics is extrodinary
My cousin (10:17:35 PM): the even
Me (10:18:09 PM): Here's something else:
Me (10:18:11 PM): Vision is largely a mental process (the brain flips the retina's image after birth so we can see things the correct way), and it is skepticism itself that impairs the mind's ability to believe in something. If the brain were skeptical of the world being the correct way down, then we'd still see the world upside-down as the retina (physical aspect of the eye) intended. Science has shown this to be correct, but scientists are mistaken when they say that Bates method is pseudoscience because that would be hypocritical since how we see is based on the brain's ability to "believe" in what we're seeing.
Me (10:19:08 PM): Bates addressed this directly himself.
My cousin (10:19:19 PM): The brain doesnt actually "believe' anything though. Its just an instrument
My cousin (10:19:50 PM): It would have been nice if we could have designed one that would have worked more efficiently, unfortunatly selective forces didnt travel that route
My cousin (10:19:54 PM): kinda like why we have an appendix
Me (10:21:23 PM): Then how is it that "Thoughts and emotions can either create or destroy healthy tissue"?
My cousin (10:22:02 PM): what do u mean by that?
My cousin (10:22:08 PM): gonna need an example i guess
Me (10:22:44 PM): Remember last time you were talking about double blind study?
Me (10:22:47 PM): Here's a problem...
Me (10:22:49 PM): Think of how depressing thoughts (depression) can manifest itself in a physical sense by weakening the immune system, causing a myriad of diseases. Negative thoughts also send negative nerve impulses to the muscles, tensing them. The reverse, positive thoughts, can help in alleviating diseases, and so can relaxation.
The concept that "thought or emotion can create or destroy healthy tissue" would completely undermine any conclusive comparison between the outcomes for the ̬̉placebỏ̬ subjects and the experimental subjects in an RCCT (Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial), such as a double blind study.
My cousin (10:23:41 PM): Well if you mean it like that its simple, if i think i raise my arm my arm raises
My cousin (10:23:52 PM): that is if i want it to
My cousin (10:24:15 PM): there are a lot of physiological problems with depression and stress.
My cousin (10:24:34 PM): Like increased arterial pressure, bloodflow to muscles, cellular metaolism
My cousin (10:25:04 PM): Just being stressed can release enzymes raising blood glucose which increases glycolysis
My cousin (10:25:19 PM): adrenline can lead to increased muscle strength , increased mental activity and blood coagulation
Me (10:25:54 PM): I'm thinking of this in a medical perspective actually, which is why the scientific method cannot always address people's diseases just by treating it as if it were simply a physical process, the mind is often neglected in our society when treating people of things like mental illness and physical illnesses
My cousin (10:26:40 PM): Not really , maybe a long time ago but now physicians understand a great deal about how the brain works.
Me (10:26:49 PM): I think a lot of our diseases are mainly psychological, that's all I'm saying.. that most of our diseases start with the mind itself. call me stupid if you like
My cousin (10:27:13 PM): what type of disease?
My cousin (10:27:20 PM): If you mean like depression or stress then sure.
Me (10:27:17 PM): and my reasoning here is that declining vision is a functional disease, oftentimes caused by the mind itself
My cousin (10:27:29 PM): And stress can lead to a compromised immune system.
My cousin (10:27:57 PM): But can our mind spontaneiously create influenza, typhoid, cystic fibrosis? nope
Me (10:27:54 PM): well, how about chronic anemia?
My cousin (10:28:13 PM): There may be several reasons for chronic anemia
Me (10:28:08 PM): not those types, but I mean that our mental processes can manifest in a physical sense
My cousin (10:28:34 PM): Mental Processes are physical in the first place though.
Me (10:28:35 PM): I'm not talking about viral or bacteria strains, I'm talking about how our mind can weaken immune system, make us more vulnerable, etc
My cousin (10:29:02 PM): An example of a mental process leading to a physical sense is when my mind commands my arm to raise and it raises.
Me (10:28:59 PM): what do you mean, mental processes are physical in the first place?
My cousin (10:29:18 PM): The brain is the center of all mental processes
My cousin (10:29:20 PM): and the brain is physical
My cousin (10:29:32 PM): If you remove the brain or damage it, there are no more thoughts or mind.
Me (10:30:00 PM): sure enough, but the mind can control things like our circulation, our breathing, our parasympathic and sympathic responses... but the brain itself cannot
Me (10:30:04 PM): in a physical sense, I mean
Me (10:30:14 PM): mentally, yes
My cousin (10:30:32 PM): no the brain is what controls each of those things
My cousin (10:30:48 PM): when my mind tells my arm to raise
My cousin (10:30:52 PM): its my brain physically doing it
My cousin (10:31:09 PM): the mind is in the brain and the brain controls circulation
Me (10:31:31 PM): how does the brain (apart from the mind) control circulation?
Me (10:31:37 PM): in a physical sense..
My cousin (10:31:47 PM): Through the Sympathetic Nervous System
My cousin (10:32:30 PM): the mind is in the brain, if you cut open the brain u can't think
Me (10:32:34 PM): but then how does the brain switch between sympathic and parasympathic behavior?
Me (10:32:49 PM): our mind affects us to go into "fight and flight" mode
My cousin (10:33:22 PM): Your brain
My cousin (10:33:27 PM): affects fight or flight mode lol
My cousin (10:33:40 PM): if you mean mind as brain than i have no argument
My cousin (10:33:49 PM): but if you think the mind is something seperate from the brain than i strongly disagree
My cousin (10:34:00 PM): As far as teh nervous system
My cousin (10:34:14 PM): I'm not an expert by any means but i know that most of the cranial nerves originate from teh brainstem
Me (10:34:22 PM): you said earlier: My cousin: What i mean is the mind gets all of its function from the brain. (sounds like they are separate)
My cousin (10:34:56 PM): i was using the word mind there in a sense of
My cousin (10:35:24 PM): an analogy for our consciencness
My cousin (10:35:28 PM): not as something seperate from the brain
My cousin (10:35:47 PM): Same thing as saying the heart is part of the body
My cousin (10:36:00 PM): doesnt really mean they are seperate
My cousin (10:36:02 PM): one is just within the other
My cousin (10:36:05 PM): hehe
Me (10:36:21 PM): well, if the brain is the mind indeed as you say, then can't we manipulate our mind to react differently so to acontrol the sympathic and parasympathic nervous systems, and prevent physical diseases from manifesting, or even "create healthy tissue"?
My cousin (10:36:33 PM): As far as difference i guess id say the mind is a derivative of the physical brain
My cousin (10:37:00 PM): of course you can rofl
My cousin (10:37:05 PM): the same reason that you can raise your hand
My cousin (10:37:17 PM): or will yourself to take a breath
My cousin (10:37:20 PM): thanks to your brain
My cousin (10:37:43 PM): people with damaged brains may not have the luxtury
Me (10:38:41 PM): then why cannot the mind change our vision if our mind has the ability to create how we see things, as shown by my example of optical illusions?
My cousin (10:39:50 PM): the reason that optical illusions work is not because the mind is "creating" something its because of the actual physical structure of the eyeball.
My cousin (10:40:29 PM): If you really want to know how a lot of the sensory input is derived you should read up on some Neuroscience.
My cousin (10:40:45 PM): Extremely interesting and complicated.
My cousin (10:41:08 PM): I may be fortunate enough to study it in detail in grad school
Me (10:41:11 PM): I've read a bit on neuroscience... actually that's where some of my information came from...
My cousin (10:41:28 PM): yea ive read some neuroscience too
My cousin (10:41:38 PM): im definatly not at that level of biology yet though haha
My cousin (10:41:42 PM): ive only had 2 years
My cousin (10:41:56 PM): but if you want some really basic info there is some stuff on wikipedia
My cousin (10:41:59 PM): <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience</a><!-- m -->
My cousin (10:43:00 PM): i can't wait to learn more about it but i still have to get through 1 more year of organic chemistry, micro and molecular biology and Biochem before i'll have much footwork to understand the processes.
Me (10:42:53 PM): would you be willing to try "looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface." and then ask yourself, does this seem like something the physical structure of the eyeball can do? I've tried it and I just don't see how the physical structure of the eyeball can do that
My cousin (10:43:25 PM): Actually that was one of the examples in my physics book on the chapter of optics.
Me (10:43:28 PM): I look up lots of stuff on Wikipedia, but not everything on Wikipedia is accurate (although a lot of it is)
My cousin (10:43:50 PM): yea wikipedia is alright
My cousin (10:44:18 PM): its like reading a popular press article most of the time
Me (10:44:26 PM): yeah it is
Me (10:44:31 PM): what did your physics book say regarding optics?
Me (10:45:11 PM): I could see like 15 different "curves" in my vision after looking at that animated swirl. how does the physical eye do that? the curve kept moving across my vision like the rippling of water, not staying in one spot at a time
My cousin (10:45:20 PM): i can try to find the exact passage if you want provided i can find that book
Me (10:45:36 PM): "curves" sorry.. all of them at once
My cousin (10:46:38 PM): ill try to find it in one of my physics books i guess
My cousin (10:46:50 PM): its pretty much in all the physics 101 books on sections of optics
Me (10:46:51 PM): sure, why not
Here is the conversation...
Me (10:08:01 PM): Hello
My cousin (10:08:14 PM): yo whats up
.
(skipped portion of conversation)
.
Would you be willing to continue the discussion a little more? I have something I want to show you
My cousin (10:10:08 PM): sure
My cousin (10:10:25 PM): i may be somewhat delayed in responce just cuz im on wow but ill reply as fast as i can
Me (10:11:08 PM): okay, last time you said the eye is a physical organ and it sees mainly through its anatomy itself rather than the mind, did I understand you there correctly?
Me (10:11:22 PM): well you didn't "say" but you get my drift
My cousin (10:11:57 PM): What i mean is the mind gets all of its function from the brain.
Me (10:12:02 PM): yeah, sorry I wasn't separating the mind and brain, but I was tired
Me (10:12:12 PM): yes I know the mind is a function of the brain
My cousin (10:12:27 PM): cool
Me (10:12:47 PM): want to see how the mind can be manipulated to effect how we see?
My cousin (10:13:08 PM): by mind do u mean brain?
Me (10:13:03 PM): I typed this up carefully so it would make sense
My cousin (10:13:15 PM): okay
Me (10:13:15 PM): I mean the vision center of the brain
Me (10:13:21 PM): mind, that is, I guess
My cousin (10:13:30 PM): okay
Me (10:13:26 PM): The mental process is required to decode objects out there, and it can also influence how we see. An example of how is the retina image being flipped correct way down shortly after birth. Another example of how is optical illusions, such as a small single-shade gray square appearing different next to different shades of gray and black. Yet another example of how is looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface. Our vision can play tricks on us. Itâââ‰â¢s known as perceptive intelligence, the capability to interpret what we see differently. Imagination can define how we see. To imagine something is to believe, even if only temporarily. It would be illogical to dismiss the possibility that the mind also has the power to ââ∠âblurâââ¬ï¿½ and ââ∠âclear upâââ¬ï¿½ what we see, since vision is not strictly a physical function.
Send Message Failed. Message is too long.
My cousin (10:13:48 PM): i love optical illusions
Me (10:13:40 PM): The mental process is required to decode objects out there, and it can also influence how we see. An example of how is the retina image being flipped correct way down shortly after birth. Another example of how is optical illusions, such as a small single-shade gray square appearing different next to different shades of gray and black. Yet another example of how is looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface. Our vision can play tricks on us. Itâââ‰â¢s known as perceptive intelligence, the capability to interpret what we see differently. Imagination can define how we see.
Me (10:13:42 PM): To imagine something is to believe, even if only temporarily. It would be illogical to dismiss the possibility that the mind also has the power to ââ∠âblurâââ¬ï¿½ and ââ∠âclear upâââ¬ï¿½ what we see, since vision is not strictly a physical function.
Me (10:14:35 PM): yeah optical illusions are fun, I love them too!
My cousin (10:15:05 PM): I don't believe that one can pretend to see something differently, but i certainly agree that the brain goes through some interesting processes. Its really cool if you can find the blindspot in your eye.
My cousin (10:15:24 PM): I showed Grandma an optical illusion that shows a page that looks like 2 shades of gray
My cousin (10:15:30 PM): she couldnt believe it was the same shade the whole way thorugh lol
Me (10:15:36 PM): oh yeah, I know how that goes
My cousin (10:15:50 PM): there were some really cool examples in the optics chapter of my physics book i wish i could link them ud like em
Me (10:15:54 PM): Would you like to see the 3rd example of how the vision can curve the "space" around us?
Me (10:16:43 PM): It is very strong evidence that our vision can really be altered by the mind itself
My cousin (10:16:55 PM): vision doesnt actually curve space
Me (10:16:48 PM): and it can be readily observed
Me (10:16:52 PM): I know it doesn't
Me (10:16:59 PM): but it makes space appear to have curved
My cousin (10:17:20 PM): yea there are lots of optical reasons for that
My cousin (10:17:32 PM): they physics of optics is extrodinary
My cousin (10:17:35 PM): the even
Me (10:18:09 PM): Here's something else:
Me (10:18:11 PM): Vision is largely a mental process (the brain flips the retina's image after birth so we can see things the correct way), and it is skepticism itself that impairs the mind's ability to believe in something. If the brain were skeptical of the world being the correct way down, then we'd still see the world upside-down as the retina (physical aspect of the eye) intended. Science has shown this to be correct, but scientists are mistaken when they say that Bates method is pseudoscience because that would be hypocritical since how we see is based on the brain's ability to "believe" in what we're seeing.
Me (10:19:08 PM): Bates addressed this directly himself.
My cousin (10:19:19 PM): The brain doesnt actually "believe' anything though. Its just an instrument
My cousin (10:19:50 PM): It would have been nice if we could have designed one that would have worked more efficiently, unfortunatly selective forces didnt travel that route
My cousin (10:19:54 PM): kinda like why we have an appendix
Me (10:21:23 PM): Then how is it that "Thoughts and emotions can either create or destroy healthy tissue"?
My cousin (10:22:02 PM): what do u mean by that?
My cousin (10:22:08 PM): gonna need an example i guess
Me (10:22:44 PM): Remember last time you were talking about double blind study?
Me (10:22:47 PM): Here's a problem...
Me (10:22:49 PM): Think of how depressing thoughts (depression) can manifest itself in a physical sense by weakening the immune system, causing a myriad of diseases. Negative thoughts also send negative nerve impulses to the muscles, tensing them. The reverse, positive thoughts, can help in alleviating diseases, and so can relaxation.
The concept that "thought or emotion can create or destroy healthy tissue" would completely undermine any conclusive comparison between the outcomes for the ̬̉placebỏ̬ subjects and the experimental subjects in an RCCT (Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial), such as a double blind study.
My cousin (10:23:41 PM): Well if you mean it like that its simple, if i think i raise my arm my arm raises
My cousin (10:23:52 PM): that is if i want it to
My cousin (10:24:15 PM): there are a lot of physiological problems with depression and stress.
My cousin (10:24:34 PM): Like increased arterial pressure, bloodflow to muscles, cellular metaolism
My cousin (10:25:04 PM): Just being stressed can release enzymes raising blood glucose which increases glycolysis
My cousin (10:25:19 PM): adrenline can lead to increased muscle strength , increased mental activity and blood coagulation
Me (10:25:54 PM): I'm thinking of this in a medical perspective actually, which is why the scientific method cannot always address people's diseases just by treating it as if it were simply a physical process, the mind is often neglected in our society when treating people of things like mental illness and physical illnesses
My cousin (10:26:40 PM): Not really , maybe a long time ago but now physicians understand a great deal about how the brain works.
Me (10:26:49 PM): I think a lot of our diseases are mainly psychological, that's all I'm saying.. that most of our diseases start with the mind itself. call me stupid if you like
My cousin (10:27:13 PM): what type of disease?
My cousin (10:27:20 PM): If you mean like depression or stress then sure.
Me (10:27:17 PM): and my reasoning here is that declining vision is a functional disease, oftentimes caused by the mind itself
My cousin (10:27:29 PM): And stress can lead to a compromised immune system.
My cousin (10:27:57 PM): But can our mind spontaneiously create influenza, typhoid, cystic fibrosis? nope
Me (10:27:54 PM): well, how about chronic anemia?
My cousin (10:28:13 PM): There may be several reasons for chronic anemia
Me (10:28:08 PM): not those types, but I mean that our mental processes can manifest in a physical sense
My cousin (10:28:34 PM): Mental Processes are physical in the first place though.
Me (10:28:35 PM): I'm not talking about viral or bacteria strains, I'm talking about how our mind can weaken immune system, make us more vulnerable, etc
My cousin (10:29:02 PM): An example of a mental process leading to a physical sense is when my mind commands my arm to raise and it raises.
Me (10:28:59 PM): what do you mean, mental processes are physical in the first place?
My cousin (10:29:18 PM): The brain is the center of all mental processes
My cousin (10:29:20 PM): and the brain is physical
My cousin (10:29:32 PM): If you remove the brain or damage it, there are no more thoughts or mind.
Me (10:30:00 PM): sure enough, but the mind can control things like our circulation, our breathing, our parasympathic and sympathic responses... but the brain itself cannot
Me (10:30:04 PM): in a physical sense, I mean
Me (10:30:14 PM): mentally, yes
My cousin (10:30:32 PM): no the brain is what controls each of those things
My cousin (10:30:48 PM): when my mind tells my arm to raise
My cousin (10:30:52 PM): its my brain physically doing it
My cousin (10:31:09 PM): the mind is in the brain and the brain controls circulation
Me (10:31:31 PM): how does the brain (apart from the mind) control circulation?
Me (10:31:37 PM): in a physical sense..
My cousin (10:31:47 PM): Through the Sympathetic Nervous System
My cousin (10:32:30 PM): the mind is in the brain, if you cut open the brain u can't think
Me (10:32:34 PM): but then how does the brain switch between sympathic and parasympathic behavior?
Me (10:32:49 PM): our mind affects us to go into "fight and flight" mode
My cousin (10:33:22 PM): Your brain
My cousin (10:33:27 PM): affects fight or flight mode lol
My cousin (10:33:40 PM): if you mean mind as brain than i have no argument
My cousin (10:33:49 PM): but if you think the mind is something seperate from the brain than i strongly disagree
My cousin (10:34:00 PM): As far as teh nervous system
My cousin (10:34:14 PM): I'm not an expert by any means but i know that most of the cranial nerves originate from teh brainstem
Me (10:34:22 PM): you said earlier: My cousin: What i mean is the mind gets all of its function from the brain. (sounds like they are separate)
My cousin (10:34:56 PM): i was using the word mind there in a sense of
My cousin (10:35:24 PM): an analogy for our consciencness
My cousin (10:35:28 PM): not as something seperate from the brain
My cousin (10:35:47 PM): Same thing as saying the heart is part of the body
My cousin (10:36:00 PM): doesnt really mean they are seperate
My cousin (10:36:02 PM): one is just within the other
My cousin (10:36:05 PM): hehe
Me (10:36:21 PM): well, if the brain is the mind indeed as you say, then can't we manipulate our mind to react differently so to acontrol the sympathic and parasympathic nervous systems, and prevent physical diseases from manifesting, or even "create healthy tissue"?
My cousin (10:36:33 PM): As far as difference i guess id say the mind is a derivative of the physical brain
My cousin (10:37:00 PM): of course you can rofl
My cousin (10:37:05 PM): the same reason that you can raise your hand
My cousin (10:37:17 PM): or will yourself to take a breath
My cousin (10:37:20 PM): thanks to your brain
My cousin (10:37:43 PM): people with damaged brains may not have the luxtury
Me (10:38:41 PM): then why cannot the mind change our vision if our mind has the ability to create how we see things, as shown by my example of optical illusions?
My cousin (10:39:50 PM): the reason that optical illusions work is not because the mind is "creating" something its because of the actual physical structure of the eyeball.
My cousin (10:40:29 PM): If you really want to know how a lot of the sensory input is derived you should read up on some Neuroscience.
My cousin (10:40:45 PM): Extremely interesting and complicated.
My cousin (10:41:08 PM): I may be fortunate enough to study it in detail in grad school
Me (10:41:11 PM): I've read a bit on neuroscience... actually that's where some of my information came from...
My cousin (10:41:28 PM): yea ive read some neuroscience too
My cousin (10:41:38 PM): im definatly not at that level of biology yet though haha
My cousin (10:41:42 PM): ive only had 2 years
My cousin (10:41:56 PM): but if you want some really basic info there is some stuff on wikipedia
My cousin (10:41:59 PM): <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience</a><!-- m -->
My cousin (10:43:00 PM): i can't wait to learn more about it but i still have to get through 1 more year of organic chemistry, micro and molecular biology and Biochem before i'll have much footwork to understand the processes.
Me (10:42:53 PM): would you be willing to try "looking at a dot in middle of an animated swirl for 30 seconds, then looking away to find the vision has ââ∠âcurvedâââ¬ï¿½ itself in several places, rippling like a waterâââ‰â¢s surface." and then ask yourself, does this seem like something the physical structure of the eyeball can do? I've tried it and I just don't see how the physical structure of the eyeball can do that
My cousin (10:43:25 PM): Actually that was one of the examples in my physics book on the chapter of optics.
Me (10:43:28 PM): I look up lots of stuff on Wikipedia, but not everything on Wikipedia is accurate (although a lot of it is)
My cousin (10:43:50 PM): yea wikipedia is alright
My cousin (10:44:18 PM): its like reading a popular press article most of the time
Me (10:44:26 PM): yeah it is
Me (10:44:31 PM): what did your physics book say regarding optics?
Me (10:45:11 PM): I could see like 15 different "curves" in my vision after looking at that animated swirl. how does the physical eye do that? the curve kept moving across my vision like the rippling of water, not staying in one spot at a time
My cousin (10:45:20 PM): i can try to find the exact passage if you want provided i can find that book
Me (10:45:36 PM): "curves" sorry.. all of them at once
My cousin (10:46:38 PM): ill try to find it in one of my physics books i guess
My cousin (10:46:50 PM): its pretty much in all the physics 101 books on sections of optics
Me (10:46:51 PM): sure, why not
